A New Beginning - Our 1992 Russian Federation

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shubham rai

ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
I am a full supporter of the right of these people to self determination.
However,we should not pervert this right by instigating conflicts with militias,like we did OTL.
We sadly alerady voted on a reverse Maidan,but
Crimea and Donezk + Lugansk are enough! No to Imperialism,be it American or Russian!
Italics indicate non-RP text
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I think you are thinking in the wrong direction here. We are taking part in an interactive alternate history fiction where we all come together to build the best for our country. We don't care about perceived notions of humanity or any other things. If someone's agony gives us a clear advantage for our country, then we will take it because it's fiction. If we are able to get a better position through imperialism, then so be it, and I am sure even the OTL nations work on the same principle.
We don't care about any one self determination if we able to perform the act without damaging ourself too much.
 

Kriss

ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
I am a full supporter of the right of these people to self determination.
However,we should not pervert this right by instigating conflicts with militias,like we did OTL.
We sadly alerady voted on a reverse Maidan,but
Crimea and Donezk + Lugansk are enough! No to Imperialism,be it American or Russian!
Italics indicate non-RP text
Click to expand...

Don't be. While i like to speak about legality at the end those things are just excuse. It's power makes right and taking pragmatic choices that have you be the biggest winner. It's generally a game and we must vage the risks and rewards before taking a decision.

As for reverse Maidan? It will still be a popular uprising, just this time pro EEU/CIS in nature with the backing of most of the population. I see nothing wrong with that abd it makes TL more interesting.

Author did have a point when he said that some, or other crisis would need to happen in Ukraine given how divided it was internally with Pro Russian, Pro Western and generally neutral/Pro CIS/EEU factions fighting for supremacy. Generally major problem is how we will react to it.
 
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Kriss

ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
Addendum:
Why has Belarus the right to secede but Chechnya needs approval by Council of the Republic and Regions?
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Belarusia is part of the Union State, Chechnya is a part of Russian Federation which is another part of Union State.

Basically Belarusia isn't part of Russian Federation and isn't suspectable to its laws. It's only suspectable to the laws it agreed to follow when it formed Union State with Russia and thus it has significantly more autonomy from central government.
 
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Kriss

ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
Ok.
But you’re following Self-Determination Theory,my „honorable“ co-councillor?
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Just in theory and in our case Constitution and national law is above a theory and international norms in general.

If you follow our constitution members of the Russian federation cannot secede without approval of the Parliament, but members of the Union State can secede as long as their Parliament votes for it and they achieve clear majority in referendum.
 
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Vote on aftermath of the reverse Euromaidan and Ukrainian Civil War in 2013-2015
  • Index
    • panpiotr

    panpiotr

    Please choose a option, what will happen with Ukraine in 2015, after President Yulia Tymoshenko will be deposed after Russian-led CSTO military intervention in Ukraine. The intervention will be sparked by Ukrainian Civil War in 2013-2015.

    Map of proposed Novorossyia state:
    novorossiya_map_by_prorussia_dctxw01-fullview.jpg


    A) Russia annexes Crimea and Novorossyia after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes member of EU and NATO;
    B) Russia annexes Crimea and Novorossyia after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes neutral state;
    C) Russia annexes Crimea and Novorossyia becomes an independent Pro-Russian state after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes member of EU and NATO;
    D) Russia annexes Crimea and Novorossyia becomes independent Pro-Russian state after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes neutral state;
    E) Russia annexes Crimea and Donbass after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes member of EU and NATO;
    F) Russia annexes Crimea and Donbass after referendums, the rest of Ukraine becomes neutral state;
    G) Russia annexes Crimea after referendum, the rest of Ukraine becomes neutral state;
    H) Russia annexes Crimea and Novorossyia after referendums, the rest of Ukraine is turned into a Russian puppet state;
    I) Russia annexes Crimea and Donbass after referendums, the rest of Ukraine is turned into Russian puppet state;
    K) Russia annexes Crimea after referendum, the rest of Ukraine is turned into a Russian puppet state;

    *The vote deals only what happens after the reverse Euromaidan in 2013/2014. Whether Ukraine or Novorossyia join the Union State or not will be decided in 2nd vote depending on your choice in this one. Also, annexation of Crimea is locked, so the nationalist sentiment in Russia is somehow appeased by the government.
     
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  • Index

    • Kriss

    ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
    I am not talking about legalese. In principle,yes or no?
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    I will do my best to answer this question.

    Law, or better said a compromise is the basis of the question. Belarusia and Russia made a deal to form a new state and that state allows it's members to secede, so Union State allows self determination, but members of the Union State don't allows self determination to its oblasts/territories.

    So we cannot really answer this with yes, or no. Union State was born on compromise between two state's, a compromise these both state's agreed to and that compromise became the law/contract both parties agreed to follow. Chechnya wasn't a subject to this deal as it was a member of Russian federation and thus it was subjected to the laws of Russian Federation and is represented by Federal/Union Institutions.

    Belarusia and Chechnya basically aren't the same

    panpiotr said:
    K) Russia annexes Crimea after referendum, the rest of Ukraine is turned into a Russian puppet state;
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    I vote K because we have to annex something and after all this efforts im not letting go of Ukraine.

    So yea it's Crimea followed by gradual annexation. I made peace with the fact.
     

    ProgressiveIsraelFan

    Ozpin said:
    The end of the American Empire. The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder. At this very moment in a decadent city far from here, the United States lies to the world. This fierce story which you have made, upon which we read, will bring an end to the US Government. To their cherished military. All remaining nations will bow to Russia, and will remember this as the final decades of the United States of America.
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    Great speech,disgusting content
     

    Kriss

    ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
    K is just ASB in the sense that
    „You can’t win all.“
    Russia‘s already been doing WAY better than OTL
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    Generally I've been banking on the fact that we will mantain Ukraine in our block which means not taking any lands and maintaining positive relations.

    But Internal elements within Russia say otherwise, thus we must adapt to the New reality, take least painful option when it comes to territorial grabs and see what we can do later.

    ProgressiveIsraelFan said:
    @Kriss
    Because if we are going after Self-Determination Theory,Chechnya should be independent as was made obvious by the wishes of the people
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    Problem is that it goes against the wishes of majority in Union State/Russian Federation and interests of Russian state. We already discussed this few time .

    When you apply logic and practice we as well as our rivals don't follow any theory, we all follow interests. Also wishes of the people often conflict with reality and while people may want independence having it is sometimes worse option for their livelyhood than not having it. Union State offer's secular rule, prosperity, freedom of national expression and a level of individual freedoms for Chechnya at the price of collective national freedom in form of statehood that demands independence.

    Ultimately if we take into the account the rights we do offer we do follow principle of Self determination in a managed environment,only not allowing that final step partially. That is that Chechnya has right to secede as long as they have approval from Federal/Union Parliament. Some groups don't even have that.

    Also after seeing options with Ukraine im ceartin that Chechnya shouldn't get it's independence, that's just asking for trouble down the road.
     
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    boredviewer1234

    I will vote K, but will admit we might need to conduct a thorough analysis of the Russian far right soon, we've consistently been feeding them for decades and making choices out of fear of losing ground to them. Our political centre has definitely shifted to the right overtime, mainly because we are viewing this as the ''last landgrab'' but I don't think they will share that opinion.

    By the way chat, I would try to avoid Novorossyia as that idea is inherently opposed to to a Ukrainian puppet state given it's absorbing the most pro Russian regions in Ukrainian society with the most connections to Russia.

    By that Kharkiv, Donbas are some of Ukraine industrial heartlands have quite a of connections and generally look to Russia just across the border for trade and deals as well as having a historically important role in society. With them gone Ukraine will be smaller and look to the west for non Russian controlled ports as well as far more agrarian society.

    Any pro Russian government subsequently in Kiev will have a much weaker base of possible support and be far likely to be overthrown.
     
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