The Seas of the Sultan, Ottoman New World

[Guerrilla Republik]

Part VIII

1495

In Algiers, the Aragonese had occupied Isla Penon, an island in front of Algiers harbour. They laid a heavy levy intended to suppress Corsair activity. The Emir Selim invited the Corsair brothers Oruc and Hayreddin to expel the Spanish from Oran and Penon. After they arrived, they ordered the murder of Selim, and afterwards claimed the land for Sultan Bayezid. Bayezid named Oruc as the Dey of Algiers.

Castile-Aragon stated this as a violation of the Treaty of Sevilla, which declared that Spanish shipping would not be harmed, and prepared a fleet to re-take Oran and Algiers, and invaded Grenada once again. Emir Mohammad XXI, and the Ottoman Governor of Grenada led an army of 45 000 to drive the Spanish back. The Spanish backed by the Holy Roman Empire and Venice suceeded in taking back Algiers and Oran, but Hayreddin re-took it in 1525 along with Tunis and Oran.

In Grenada, the Spanish were dealth a massive blow at the Battle of Udeba. The Ottoman pushed further onwards into Spain, laying siege to Sevilla and Algericas, before being decisively routed at Cordoba.

 

[Guerrilla Republik]

Ottoman Holdings and Vassal states by 1500

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

Ok.

HUGE NITPICK

Your seemingly pulling things out of nowhere, especially men of the renaissance working for the Ottomans.

Machiavelli was Florentine, and Leonardo is from Vinci, both of which aren't part of the Ottoman Empire. Even Donato Bramante, whose hometown IS close to ttl's Ottoman Empire would probably just move north ESPECIALLY if the Ottomans were brutal in their conquests ala this timeline.

Also, I doubt their would be an Anglican church. The Anglicans were always just really Catholicism lite due to Henry VIII wanting a son. No Henry VIII, no Anglican Church.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Also, I don't think the Holy Roman Emperor could acquire for himself the office of Pope. He would either have to recreate the Papacy in German territory, or simply take control of the Church without a Pope.

 

[Andreas]

I'm really not very happy when a thread like this one appears.
Why would the Ottomans go to the New World??? For God's sake, everyone was trying to get to the East, which was more profitable than going West, and believe me: they didn't and they couldn't know that North America would be the birthplace of the Superpower of the 20th century!!!!
The point is that the Ottomans were not eager to get anywhere but where they actually got! But if somenone would propose a POD that could move the Ottomans to this direction, it would be to the East, NOT West!

 

[jacobus]

I, on the other hand, absolutely love the idea of an Ottoman New World. It's a very cool idea.
After some of the Amerinds had accepted Islam, you'd see some with cool names like Muhammed Two Feathers.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I'm really not very happy when a thread like this one appears.
Why would the Ottomans go to the New World??? For God's sake, everyone was trying to get to the East, which was more profitable than going West, and believe me: they didn't and they couldn't know that North America would be the birthplace of the Superpower of the 20th century!!!!
The point is that the Ottomans were not eager to get anywhere but where they actually got! But if somenone would propose a POD that could move the Ottomans to this direction, it would be to the East, NOT West!

No one is forcing you to read it.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Who rules the Morea in the map at the top of this page?

Is it the Venetians? If so, their supply routes to the colony can be cut off whenever the Sultan desires - since the Ottomans now dominate both sides of the Adriatic.

If not the Venetians, can it be that the Byzantine Despotate of the Morea has survived?! If so, what is its relationship with the Ottoman Empire? There is no way Sultans Mehmet and Selim will tolerate the survival of the Despots Demetrios and Thomas Palaeologus (if they are still alive) - they would have a claim on the Throne of Constantinople and be a constant rallying-point for Christian rebellion against Ottoman rule.

So if the Byzantine Morea survives, it should be ruled by someone unrelated to the former Byzantine Emperors, or any of the other great Byzantine families like Kantakuzenos, Grand Comneni, Dukas etc. Maybe you could have an Albanian condottiero rule from the fastness of Monemvasia, or a much more highly fortified Mistras. That way, the local Greeks would hate him, and he would be absorbed with holding them down, so the Sultan would be reasonably sure he won't cause any trouble in the Balkans.

In OTL, Mehmed left the Morea to the Byzantine despot as a vassal, but the latter couldn't restrain himself from plotting against the Ottomans, and so Mehmed directly annexed it.

 

[Andreas]

Also, it wasn't Skanderbergh the reason that the Ottomans did not set foot on Italy!
First it was the troubles at Anatolia and the conquest of the Arabian states.
Second, but first in significance, it was Venice and the Pope: these two factors are so solid in their strategy against Ottoman expansion, that it would take more than one POD to get rid of them! For three centuries, Venice managed to keep the Ottomans off Italy, even in the cases she fought alone. Even when the Ottomans managed to set foot in Italy, by conquering a number of forts and castles in Puglia and Calabria, they couldn't move forward, because they were defeated in Corfu, aplace of doom for them, as they counted four disasters there!

 

[Lugal]

Also, I doubt their would be an Anglican church. The Anglicans were always just really Catholicism lite due to Henry VIII wanting a son. No Henry VIII, no Anglican Church.

I would agree, if anything the Lollards would gain in power. The Ottoman conquest of Rome being their "told you so" moment.

 

[Megas Dux ton Kypraion]

In OTL, Mehmed left the Morea to the Byzantine despot as a vassal, but the latter couldn't restrain himself from plotting against the Ottomans, and so Mehmed directly annexed it.

The Venetians control the Morea

OK, it's the Venetians; and they are humble and submissive towards the Sultans so that they can keep trading in peace in the Morea, Crete, Cyprus and the Levant.

In which case, the Morea could well be the jewel in their crown. Will it turn into a brilliant centre of trade and Mediterranean syncretistic culture, with Byzantinesque landed magnates, Rumelian horsemen, Vlach mercenaries, Venetian, Jewish and Egyptian merchant-princes setting up their grand villas in Mistras, and the centres of higher learning discussing the ideas of Avicenna, Maimonides and George Gemistos Plethon?

 

[Guerrilla Republik]

Ok.

HUGE NITPICK

Your seemingly pulling things out of nowhere, especially men of the renaissance working for the Ottomans.

Machiavelli was Florentine, and Leonardo is from Vinci, both of which aren't part of the Ottoman Empire. Even Donato Bramante, whose hometown IS close to ttl's Ottoman Empire would probably just move north ESPECIALLY if the Ottomans were brutal in their conquests ala this timeline.

Also, I doubt their would be an Anglican church. The Anglicans were always just really Catholicism lite due to Henry VIII wanting a son. No Henry VIII, no Anglican Church.

I guess youre right, i thought that part was kind of stupid and implausible as well. ill removeit.

 

[Qantrix]

It just seems that victory upon victory is stacking up for the Ottomans which makes this whole scenario a bit too typically wank-ish. Regardless of which endeavour the Turks seem to undertake, it will seems to succeed in your world up to this point (and this is before your establishment of the Ottoman New World). .

Although your obviously the writer, and I'm by no means an expert on alternate history, I think it would make your AH a whole lot more interesting if the Ottoman Empire would go through a number of hardships, making the expeditions to the New World more or less necessary. Remember that in the case of a prosperous Ottoman Empire, the inhabitants are very unlikely to head for a very uncertain future on the other side of the world and that many of the people likely to do so already, seemingly, have repopulated the italian peninsula.

Maybe also expansion in east is blocked, for example by a strong Persia and by the 1500s thanks to the efforts of the European Powers, Ottoman influence is restricted to southern Spain, southern Italy and the Balkans and tales of fishermen in the Atlantic bring back stories of a New World across the Ocean. It would give at least some sort of motive for the Ottomans to expand here, across a big ocean while in your scenario they could just as easily take most of Eurasia and quite easily repopulate it with Turks.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Going to the New World would more likely be a Granadan venture. The Portuguese would likely go there first, with the Iberian Muslims finding out about it before their Ottoman overlords. The establishment of colonies, while indeed sponsored by the Ottoman Sultan, would mainly be a Granadan undertaking. The initial benefits for the Ottomans from all this would be to permanently introduce the Galleon as a standard ship in their warfleet. Another could be that its them, rather than the Portuguese, who would be the first to circumnavigate the globe. Another fallout from this TL could be to establish proper maratime links with the west African Muslim empire of Mali. They could could provide the Ottoman-Grandan venture with both a source of labour and/or auxiliary soldiers. The Ottoman support for the Granadan colonization might be at first half-hearted, until the Portuguese make their presence known in India.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Maybe also expansion in east is blocked, for example by a strong Persia and by the 1500s thanks to the efforts of the European Powers, Ottoman influence is restricted to southern Spain, southern Italy and the Balkans and tales of fishermen in the Atlantic bring back stories of a New World across the Ocean. It would give at least some sort of motive for the Ottomans to expand here, across a big ocean while in your scenario they could just as easily take most of Eurasia and quite easily repopulate it with Turks.

I too, also wonder about this as well. With more Ottoman focus to the west emerging in the same time with the rise of the Safavids, will the Ottomans feel as threatened by it as IOTL ? Not to mention that it seems the Ottomans didn't get them self into trouble with the White Sheeps, I wonder if that'd effect things as well....

If the Ottomans won't be having those complex political struggle with the Safavids, I wonder if it could have religious-ideological effects on them. IOTL, 'cause IOTL that was what got them into complete Sunni Orthodoxy, along with the seizure of Caliphal title from the Mamluks-held puppet Abbasid Caliph. And about Egypt btw, what caused the Ottomans moved into it IOTL because it was drought out of its revenue from the Indian Ocean spice trade the Portuguese adventures there...

 

[MNP]

That's true, Bayezid II did patronize the Twelvers somewhat (among other sects).

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I'm really not very happy when a thread like this one appears.
Why would the Ottomans go to the New World??? For God's sake, everyone was trying to get to the East, which was more profitable than going West, and believe me: they didn't and they couldn't know that North America would be the birthplace of the Superpower of the 20th century!!!!
The point is that the Ottomans were not eager to get anywhere but where they actually got! But if somenone would propose a POD that could move the Ottomans to this direction, it would be to the East, NOT West!

Incorrect. Mehmed ONLY had Western ambitions; if he had made greater progress in that direction, most likely his successors would have continued that policy - they would have been forced to.

It was Selim's conquest of the Mameluke Empire that changed the Ottoman Empire's orientation.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Also, it wasn't Skanderbergh the reason that the Ottomans did not set foot on Italy!
First it was the troubles at Anatolia and the conquest of the Arabian states.
Second, but first in significance, it was Venice and the Pope: these two factors are so solid in their strategy against Ottoman expansion, that it would take more than one POD to get rid of them! For three centuries, Venice managed to keep the Ottomans off Italy, even in the cases she fought alone. Even when the Ottomans managed to set foot in Italy, by conquering a number of forts and castles in Puglia and Calabria, they couldn't move forward, because they were defeated in Corfu, aplace of doom for them, as they counted four disasters there!

You need to review your history. The Ottomans DID set foot in Italy - but Mehmed died and the project was abandoned. This was after Mehmed crushed the Venetians in a war and forced them to make peace.

You are oversimplifying and greatly exaggerating the role of Venice as a bastion against the Ottomans. In reality the relationship was complex and often cooperative.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

It just seems that victory upon victory is stacking up for the Ottomans which makes this whole scenario a bit too typically wank-ish. Regardless of which endeavour the Turks seem to undertake, it will seems to succeed in your world up to this point (and this is before your establishment of the Ottoman New World). .

Although your obviously the writer, and I'm by no means an expert on alternate history, I think it would make your AH a whole lot more interesting if the Ottoman Empire would go through a number of hardships, making the expeditions to the New World more or less necessary. Remember that in the case of a prosperous Ottoman Empire, the inhabitants are very unlikely to head for a very uncertain future on the other side of the world and that many of the people likely to do so already, seemingly, have repopulated the italian peninsula.

Maybe also expansion in east is blocked, for example by a strong Persia and by the 1500s thanks to the efforts of the European Powers, Ottoman influence is restricted to southern Spain, southern Italy and the Balkans and tales of fishermen in the Atlantic bring back stories of a New World across the Ocean. It would give at least some sort of motive for the Ottomans to expand here, across a big ocean while in your scenario they could just as easily take most of Eurasia and quite easily repopulate it with Turks.

Sigh. Have you read OTL Ottoman history in this period? It was a litany of victory after victory. They did, after all, build a massive empire in the space of 150 years. And they have suffered reverses in this TL; but then I know that it's a requirement of AH that the Ottomans must always do worse than in OTL - certainly not better, and not even just about the same, but in a somewhat different way.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I too, also wonder about this as well. With more Ottoman focus to the west emerging in the same time with the rise of the Safavids, will the Ottomans feel as threatened by it as IOTL ? Not to mention that it seems the Ottomans didn't get them self into trouble with the White Sheeps, I wonder if that'd effect things as well....

If the Ottomans won't be having those complex political struggle with the Safavids, I wonder if it could have religious-ideological effects on them. IOTL, 'cause IOTL that was what got them into complete Sunni Orthodoxy, along with the seizure of Caliphal title from the Mamluks-held puppet Abbasid Caliph. And about Egypt btw, what caused the Ottomans moved into it IOTL because it was drought out of its revenue from the Indian Ocean spice trade the Portuguese adventures there...

I think if there is an early victory against the Safavids, Iran will not become a Shiite power and will not pose a serious threat to the Ottomans. As you say, it will also reduce the impetus to Sunni Orthodoxy in the Ottoman Empire.