The Seas of the Sultan, Ottoman New World
- Thread starter Guerrilla Republik
- Start date
Its a good timeline and I'll gladly keep reading it.
But I am in agreement with AHP that Ottoman invasions weren't brutal. Also, the only groups that might resist fiercly (to Pope's call) would be the cities (a little less than 25% of the pop approaching the 1500's) and even then cities have their livelihoods to maintain. Once a few examples are made of cities in the south, more northern ones will start making deals with the Ottomans.
Many peasants might also oh so very slightly support the Ottomans. Italy just prior and during the renaissance was actually rather chaotic. Social and political tensions threatened everything in those days. The Ottomans offered stability, and from what I've read, the reason they won so much was because they had a disciplined army. I doubt Mehmed would make such victories if his troops ran willy nilly over mountainous Italy raping and pillaging.
I'm not sure what your aiming for with this, is it muslim southern Italy? Italy doesn't really have to be muslim to be loyal, and Islamification can much easier occur over centuries then some resetlement program.
I concur with AHP and jenkins - Ottoman troops weren't known for random unprovoked acks of brutality, and the Ottomans preferred having more subjects to less. IIRC in the Balkans in some cases peasants were acutally paying less taxes after conquest than before, which may raise support for the Ottomans in southern Italy.
Tweeky
Banned
My understanding as to why the Ottoman empire invaded Cyprus was on the account of its' vineyards; the sultan who ordered the invasion was Selim the sot.
This Timeline totally ignores Venice and Hungary, lets the Ottomans conquer Wallachia (which was specifically left out of every possible annexation since it was part of the House of Peace) and ignores the problems at the Eastern Frontiers, especially the Ak Koiunlu and Karaman.
Wank
Wank
Mmmm. I think he's showing vassal states as incorporated into the empire. Karaman was still independent at this point, IIRC, as was Crimea. The Romanian principalities were on again off again vassal of the Ottomans for much of the history of the empire, and Croatia and Hungary seem to have had Mohacs ahead of schedule.
This Timeline totally ignores Venice and Hungary, lets the Ottomans conquer Wallachia (which was specifically left out of every possible annexation since it was part of the House of Peace) and ignores the problems at the Eastern Frontiers, especially the Ak Koiunlu and Karaman.
Wank
This is actually a pretty good TL.
I have to concur with Alexandru, Venice & Hungary are bound to do something.
You can actually try this scenario in Europa Universalis
I did
This is actually a pretty good TL.
I have to concur with Alexandru, Venice & Hungary are bound to do something.
You can actually try this scenario in Europa Universalis
I did
In EU2 I was conquering Egypt and Hungary with Mehmed II. But that was just a game.
I don't say the Ottomans wouldn't expand. But they take Italy too fast. And the problem with Italy is that it needs a lot of troops to stop the revolts and the wars that are bound to happen. The supply lines would be horrendous. Let's remember how hard was for the Empire to campaign in the Austrian lands because of the supply issue.
Venice was not a pussy, even if it was on the losing side in the war against Mehmed II. Let's remember the problems he had with Rhodos and Belgrade. It wasn't only an issue of bringing troops and winning battles by default. You must reconsider the fleet problem, too. Until Barbarossa, the turkish fleet was much worse than its western counterpart.
I agree. I have to leave a 12 stack of cavalry in Romanga to deal with the revolts in southern Italy, as well as a small back up force 4k infantry and 2k artillery.
On the other hand, North Africa has fallen to me by 1600, and the idea of colonising the new world certainly sparked an interest in me... until I noticed the Europeans already took everything.
This sounds like a bit of a myth.
Cyprus (in the 1570s) was invaded to get rid of a potentially very pesky Venetian base, which was pointed like a dagger at the Ottomans' soft underbelly - and could be used to link Christian powers with potential enemies among the Mamluks, the White/Black Sheep, and so on.
The 1470s/80s in OTL was when the Venetians took over the island from the last Lusignan Queen, Caterina Cornaro. Does this happen ITTL too? Or do the Lusignan dynasty survive in power? If so, are they friendly towards the Ottomans (that would be wise) or show some of their 14th century 'crusading' zeal?
As for the Ottomans in Italy, there are many interesting possibilities arising from this. Italy ought to be a prime recruiting ground for Ottoman talent for the Harem (mothers and concubines of future Sultans?) and the army/bureaucracy (if the devsirme is instituted here?) If Italians become the talent pool for the Ottomans, does that mean relatively less talent is recruited in Rumeli/Thrace, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania and so on? If so, with what social repercussions for the Balkan part of the Empire?
And will the Ottomans benefit from the 'Renaissance' which is underway in the Italian lands during the second half of the 14th century? It would be extremely neat to see the Ottomans create a new aegis for the promotion of technical progress, science, public amenities like universities/libraries and so on. It will be like the High Caliphate, before the 11th century, reborn in new Romano-Turco-Islamic lands...
I doubt the Ottomans will reap the benefits of the renaissance if they've butchered the population of Italy as they have in this timeline...
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
This Timeline totally ignores Venice and Hungary, lets the Ottomans conquer Wallachia (which was specifically left out of every possible annexation since it was part of the House of Peace) and ignores the problems at the Eastern Frontiers, especially the Ak Koiunlu and Karaman.
Wank
He's not distinguishing vassals from directly ruled territory - that's clear from the Crimea.
The Ak Koyunlu caused trouble because the Ottomans attacked them - that didn't happen in this TL.
Karaman is too minor an issue to even cover, really.
He's not ignoring Venice and Hungary, it's just that the fighting is in Italy instead of Hungary.
There's no need to be rude.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
A silly myth. Cyrus was taken because the Ottoman conquest of the Levant made it an important strategic point, which also was a haven for corsairs.
The Morea
Who rules the Morea in the map at the top of this page?
Is it the Venetians? If so, their supply routes to the colony can be cut off whenever the Sultan desires - since the Ottomans now dominate both sides of the Adriatic.
If not the Venetians, can it be that the Byzantine Despotate of the Morea has survived?! If so, what is its relationship with the Ottoman Empire? There is no way Sultans Mehmet and Selim will tolerate the survival of the Despots Demetrios and Thomas Palaeologus (if they are still alive) - they would have a claim on the Throne of Constantinople and be a constant rallying-point for Christian rebellion against Ottoman rule.
So if the Byzantine Morea survives, it should be ruled by someone unrelated to the former Byzantine Emperors, or any of the other great Byzantine families like Kantakuzenos, Grand Comneni, Dukas etc. Maybe you could have an Albanian condottiero rule from the fastness of Monemvasia, or a much more highly fortified Mistras. That way, the local Greeks would hate him, and he would be absorbed with holding them down, so the Sultan would be reasonably sure he won't cause any trouble in the Balkans.
Who rules the Morea in the map at the top of this page?
Is it the Venetians? If so, their supply routes to the colony can be cut off whenever the Sultan desires - since the Ottomans now dominate both sides of the Adriatic.
If not the Venetians, can it be that the Byzantine Despotate of the Morea has survived?!
If so, what is its relationship with the Ottoman Empire? There is no way Sultans Mehmet and Selim will tolerate the survival of the Despots Demetrios and Thomas Palaeologus (if they are still alive) - they would have a claim on the Throne of Constantinople and be a constant rallying-point for Christian rebellion against Ottoman rule.So if the Byzantine Morea survives, it should be ruled by someone unrelated to the former Byzantine Emperors, or any of the other great Byzantine families like Kantakuzenos, Grand Comneni, Dukas etc. Maybe you could have an Albanian condottiero rule from the fastness of Monemvasia, or a much more highly fortified Mistras. That way, the local Greeks would hate him, and he would be absorbed with holding them down, so the Sultan would be reasonably sure he won't cause any trouble in the Balkans.
Part V
[FONT="]After Rome was captured, and a puppet Pope was installed in the Ottoman lands, each nation raced to set up their own independent churches. France had the patronage of Pope Galerius in Avignon. Portugal sponsored their own Pope in Lisbon, and The Holy Roman Empire also did the same.
Meanwhile in Aragon, the Spanish Pope called for a crusade to rid the heathen occupiers of Grenada, the Nasrid Emirs. The call was taken up by Castile, Aragon, and Portugal, eager to deal a blow against the Muslims after the disastrous Roman Crusades. The Nasrid Emir Mohammad XVI found out about the invasion, and began making defensive preparations. The Grenadians could not repel the invaders themselves, so they asked for aid from Morocco, the Ottomans, Hafsids and the Algerians. Since the Grenadians were not on the best relations with the rest of the Muslim world, they all rejected their pleas, except the Ottomans who saw opportunity from ruling the Mediterranean from the other side, and decided to aid the Grenadians. Sultan Bayezid sent the Ottoman fleet, and 25 000 Ottoman troops to aid the Grenadians. The Grenadian Army numbered up to 30 000. But the Ottomans only aided the Nasrids on one condition, vassalage. Seeing as he had no choice, Mohammad XXI relented. After several hard years of campaigning, the Ottoman General Murat Ali Pasha Commander of Islamic Forces announced victory after chasing the Spanish from the gates of Baza. A subsequent Peace treaty guaranteed that Grenada would not come under any harm, and was formally under Ottoman protection, in return Portuguese, Castilian and Aragonese shipping would not come under any harm from Ottoman and Ottoman Allied privateers. With the Mediterranean safely in Ottoman hands, Bayezid could now look south to the Mamelukes, Aq Qoyonlu and the Sheep Turcomans…[/FONT]
[FONT="]After Rome was captured, and a puppet Pope was installed in the Ottoman lands, each nation raced to set up their own independent churches. France had the patronage of Pope Galerius in Avignon. Portugal sponsored their own Pope in Lisbon, and The Holy Roman Empire also did the same.
Meanwhile in Aragon, the Spanish Pope called for a crusade to rid the heathen occupiers of Grenada, the Nasrid Emirs. The call was taken up by Castile, Aragon, and Portugal, eager to deal a blow against the Muslims after the disastrous Roman Crusades. The Nasrid Emir Mohammad XVI found out about the invasion, and began making defensive preparations. The Grenadians could not repel the invaders themselves, so they asked for aid from Morocco, the Ottomans, Hafsids and the Algerians. Since the Grenadians were not on the best relations with the rest of the Muslim world, they all rejected their pleas, except the Ottomans who saw opportunity from ruling the Mediterranean from the other side, and decided to aid the Grenadians. Sultan Bayezid sent the Ottoman fleet, and 25 000 Ottoman troops to aid the Grenadians. The Grenadian Army numbered up to 30 000. But the Ottomans only aided the Nasrids on one condition, vassalage. Seeing as he had no choice, Mohammad XXI relented. After several hard years of campaigning, the Ottoman General Murat Ali Pasha Commander of Islamic Forces announced victory after chasing the Spanish from the gates of Baza. A subsequent Peace treaty guaranteed that Grenada would not come under any harm, and was formally under Ottoman protection, in return Portuguese, Castilian and Aragonese shipping would not come under any harm from Ottoman and Ottoman Allied privateers. With the Mediterranean safely in Ottoman hands, Bayezid could now look south to the Mamelukes, Aq Qoyonlu and the Sheep Turcomans…[/FONT]
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Who rules the Morea in the map at the top of this page?
Is it the Venetians? If so, their supply routes to the colony can be cut off whenever the Sultan desires - since the Ottomans now dominate both sides of the Adriatic.
If not the Venetians, can it be that the Byzantine Despotate of the Morea has survived?!
So if the Byzantine Morea survives, it should be ruled by someone unrelated to the former Byzantine Emperors, or any of the other great Byzantine families like Kantakuzenos, Grand Comneni, Dukas etc. Maybe you could have an Albanian condottiero rule from the fastness of Monemvasia, or a much more highly fortified Mistras. That way, the local Greeks would hate him, and he would be absorbed with holding them down, so the Sultan would be reasonably sure he won't cause any trouble in the Balkans.
The Venetians control the Morea
Part VI
To the east, the Aq Kayanlu Khanate began undermining the growing influence of the Ottomans. They asked Hungary and Venice for aid against the Ottomans, though aid was promised, it was never delivered. When Bayezid heard of this he geared for war. A powerful state on his frontiers would not do.
The Kayanlu Khan Uzun Hassan advanced to meet the Ottoman near Erzurum, along with the Dulkudris, Kara Kayanlus, Safavids and other members of the Kayanlu Confederation. The Ottomans, lead directly by Sultan Bayezid II dealt the Kayanlus a terribel blow, killing Uzun Hassan in the process. His son Khalil Mirza raced to Baghdad to claim the throne. After consolodating his position, he was met with a confederation under his brother Ya'qub Mirza. After defeating Khalil at the Battle of Khoy, Ya'qub spent the rest of his reign defeating pretenders, and ebbing the oncoming tide of the Ottomans. After Ya'qubs death, the Safavids undermined their authority and proclaimed their own state under Shah Ismail I. The Safavid hordes came south from Azerbaijan, conquering much of Persia, while the Ottomans seized the moment, crushing the Dulkudris, Qara Qayanlus, and laid seige to Baghdad itself. After several months, The power of the Aq Kayanlus crumbled after the decisive Safavid victory and thei Qizilbash allies at Nakchivan and the fall of Baghdad to the Ottomans. The Ottomans placed Hasan Ali Tarkhani, a member of the Ak Kayanlu ruling elite as a puppet ruler of Mesopotamia, keeping him under a tight military leash, as a buffer state against the rising Safavids
By the year 1501, several small skirmishes between the Safavids and the Ottomans occured, but relations remained simmering.
In the west, the Ottoman governor Serbia put down a small revolt, and the vassal ruler of Wallachia began to undermine Ottoman authority, and an expedition placed his uncle on the throne.
To the east, the Aq Kayanlu Khanate began undermining the growing influence of the Ottomans. They asked Hungary and Venice for aid against the Ottomans, though aid was promised, it was never delivered. When Bayezid heard of this he geared for war. A powerful state on his frontiers would not do.
The Kayanlu Khan Uzun Hassan advanced to meet the Ottoman near Erzurum, along with the Dulkudris, Kara Kayanlus, Safavids and other members of the Kayanlu Confederation. The Ottomans, lead directly by Sultan Bayezid II dealt the Kayanlus a terribel blow, killing Uzun Hassan in the process. His son Khalil Mirza raced to Baghdad to claim the throne. After consolodating his position, he was met with a confederation under his brother Ya'qub Mirza. After defeating Khalil at the Battle of Khoy, Ya'qub spent the rest of his reign defeating pretenders, and ebbing the oncoming tide of the Ottomans. After Ya'qubs death, the Safavids undermined their authority and proclaimed their own state under Shah Ismail I. The Safavid hordes came south from Azerbaijan, conquering much of Persia, while the Ottomans seized the moment, crushing the Dulkudris, Qara Qayanlus, and laid seige to Baghdad itself. After several months, The power of the Aq Kayanlus crumbled after the decisive Safavid victory and thei Qizilbash allies at Nakchivan and the fall of Baghdad to the Ottomans. The Ottomans placed Hasan Ali Tarkhani, a member of the Ak Kayanlu ruling elite as a puppet ruler of Mesopotamia, keeping him under a tight military leash, as a buffer state against the rising Safavids
By the year 1501, several small skirmishes between the Safavids and the Ottomans occured, but relations remained simmering.
In the west, the Ottoman governor Serbia put down a small revolt, and the vassal ruler of Wallachia began to undermine Ottoman authority, and an expedition placed his uncle on the throne.
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