Keynes' Cruisers

Status
Not open for further replies.
USN ASW forces compared to OTL as I write on my phone:

4 earlier CVE
20 patrol gunboat knock-offs of the Treasury Class
24 modern fleet destroyers
~30 dedicated B24 MPA not all in the Atlantic Fleet
2 additional blimps

Four stackers were in better material shape due to earlier refits.

Very little doctrinal change. Most/all of the new modern DD are with the Fleet. So the argument is over four CVE, twenty or so escorts and 12-16 modified B-24s and a pair of blimps east of Panama.

The biggest plus for Drumbeat from USN perspective is the RN has killed more U boats. Downside is there has not been a mass transfer of German subs to the Med.
 
Fester, how many (if any) more ships will the USCG be getting? I am wondering if the Flowers the USN took would end up in USCG hands instead, or any other small combatants. The Flowers would actually have been right up our alley
 
Fester, how many (if any) more ships will the USCG be getting? I am wondering if the Flowers the USN took would end up in USCG hands instead, or any other small combatants. The Flowers would actually have been right up our alley
As of now the USCG OTL and TTL strength are effectively similar
 
Thanks for clarifying. IMHO that will help, even if the tactics are the same as OTL. Every U-Boat sunk is a plus, as is every ship/cargo saved. Once the US gets its act together, they will be starting at a better place. Not an Ameriwank, but certainly an improvement.
 
Fester, how many (if any) more ships will the USCG be getting? I am wondering if the Flowers the USN took would end up in USCG hands instead, or any other small combatants. The Flowers would actually have been right up our alley

I agree. I think the Flower class corvettes would have been more suitable for escorting convoys in the somewhat calmer waters off the Eastern seaboard, in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean sea than the stormy North Atlantic. They would also be on shorter convoy runs which would be a lot easier on the crews and the ships.

But how can you take any corvettes off the North Atlantic convoys? They are too badly needed there.
Maybe get some new construction fresh off the slips and work them up with their new crews quickly.
Ask the Canadians for some help with that.

The Treasury class derived gunboats are good too but there is not enough of them to escort all the convoys when convoying is started off the U.S. coasts. They are going to need a large bouquet of Flowers.
 
A couple of points:
1. The USN DamCom was light years ahead of the British, and most of what you are 'suggesting' they already knew(USS Houston's scene). There's a lot of proof on that, because of the point the USN pretty much stole (and was already leaning this way, pre WW1) the entire German manual right after WW1. Frankly, that's complete bullshit. No ifs ands or buts. USN DamCom was that fucking good already. Far, far better than the British even with 2 years of war.
2. Happy time.
This is all Adm. King's fault. Period, dot. He is the one who pretty much said "no convoys" et al.
 
As for building more escorts, well, duh, if you're building more of everything else, you build more escorts. IIRC, too, some of the new escorts were earmarked for/sold to the Brits/Canadians.

You would think so .. but OTL NO and NO (and yet another NO).

In OTL Dec 1941 the USN was building plenty of ships from DD to BB
but the only ASW ships being planned (planned not built yet) were those asked for by the British in June 1941

The first DEs in the USN had to be diverted from that British order and were not launched until after December 1942
and did not begin work till mid 1943 (see history of Evarts Class)

and of the many old DDs reactivated in 1940 and 41 time none were modified for ASW work by the USN.
Those in American service were updated as destroyers and those ships sent to Britain had to be both fixed and modified in British yards.
 
I think the Flower class corvettes would have been more suitable for escorting convoys in the somewhat calmer waters off the Eastern seaboard, in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean sea than the stormy North Atlantic. They would also be on shorter convoy runs which would be a lot easier on the crews and the ships.

But how can you take any corvettes off the North Atlantic convoys? They are too badly needed there.


The Treasury class derived gunboats are good too but there is not enough of them to escort all the convoys when convoying is started off the U.S. coasts. They are going to need a large bouquet of Flowers.

RN reinforcement will do no good. We know that because in OTL such a force was sent ... and totally wasted

The RN stripped around 10 corvettes, 24 light escorts (with ASDIC) plus a MP squadron (all experienced crews)
and sent them to the East Coast against operation Drumbeat.
Some later moved south versus Neuland e.g. the RN took over most escort duties on the Aruba - New York tanker run.

However the USN insisted on control of these assets and persisted in using them in exactly the same way as it was wasting it own much more numerous escorts.

For a full account from a direct witness of these blunders see middle section of "Really Not Required" by Colin Warwick
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Really-Not-Required-Colin-Warwick/dp/1858214777
which includes samples of the orders and papers issued by the USN at the time

Aside: the title is not a jibe relating to this period, but an "in" joke about Warwick's whole career.
He was originally full RN but made redundant to the Royal Naval Reserve before WW2. (riffing is nothing new)
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
@MageOhki

Admiral King being 100% responsible for the events of the American Eastern Seaboard, I am sorry sir, but I must disagree, 80 to 90% is in my opinion more like it. If we look at what happened, we can see that there were a number of factors that came together, to produce a perfect storm.


Was the events predictable yes, at the close of WWI, one of the top American Admirals had written of such a campaign. And given the events in the present conflict, it only made sense that the Germans would switch their efforts in the event of America joining the war. The failure of the American Naval establishment to properly plan for such an event, was criminal. As were the constant excuses as to why they couldn't introduce convoys. Not enough escorts, no planes, no airfields, etc, etc, we can not turn the lights off, it might upset the tourists.


With two years to plan from the outbreak of the war, and the certainty that America would be involved to some extent. And with twenty years since the end of WWI, and years of war games conducted by the American Navy. A basic war plan should have been on the shelf, ready to be taken down, dusted off and put in place, until it could be modified in light of experience. Note the British had their plan in place pre war, quickly implemented it, despite all the shortages that the Americans moaned about, and then worked to make up for the short comings.


While there never was any need for a national blackout in America, there was a need for a coastal blackout, and legislation should have been in place, ready to enact. The basic plan should have taken into account the initial shortages, and been ready to go, making best use of what was available.


Historically the American Navy had abrogated the control of the Atlantic to the RN, as only the RN could project its power across the width of the Ocean. The emasculation of the German surface fleet as a result of the Versailles, meant that the only possible contender for conflict in the Atlantic was the RN. Hence the numerous War Plane Red, Scarlet, Maroon, Burgundy, Pink etc, war games run, during the interwar years. If during these games, and the odd Black game, no consideration to a submarine campaign off the East Coast was included, then that is a major failing of the American Naval Establishment.


King wasn't a god, and he needed the both the American political and naval establishment to allow him to act as he did. His personal fixation with the Japanese, Anglophobia, and general stubbornness were well known, and should have been controlled. That no one was prepared to call him to task, or give him a direct order, was criminal, and an indictment of the lack of political will. This is a major difference between the American and the British way, after the problems in WWI, with both Haig and Fisher, British politicians made sure that they were in control, not the Admirals or Generals.


The changes ITTL that have taken place, will even if there is no change in the American response to Germany declaring war against them. Will see a reduction in the effects of the German East Coast submarine campaign, if nothing else the British are in a slightly better position. If someone is prepared to grab King tightly by his nuts, and force him to do what needs to be done. Then the Germans will quickly find the happy times are over.

RR.
 
IIRC by 42 all the Treasuries were doing convoy work in the Atlantic, along with most of our smaller vessels. Using the Flowers as such wouldn't be out of character. It'd be a hell of a ride, but nothing new or out of the ordinary. King (IMO) didn't really care about small combatants that didn't carry torps. Vessels like that were good for convoy escort (ASW/AA) but nothing else. He wanted ships that could be used offensively against larger opponents, and with a fair turn of speed, and since none of the CG ships at that time carried torps, he used them mostly in the Atlantic. None made it to the Pacific until the Atlantic was pretty secure, and we started pumping out Frigates by the bucketful, in the interim only CG manned transports and very small craft were sent to the Pac theater.
 
A couple of points:
1. The USN DamCom was light years ahead of the British, and most of what you are 'suggesting' they already knew(USS Houston's scene). There's a lot of proof on that, because of the point the USN pretty much stole (and was already leaning this way, pre WW1) the entire German manual right after WW1. Frankly, that's complete bullshit. No ifs ands or buts. USN DamCom was that fucking good already. Far, far better than the British even with 2 years of war.
2. Happy time.
This is all Adm. King's fault. Period, dot. He is the one who pretty much said "no convoys" et al.

I assume "DamCom" means damage control, so why "Com" instead of "Con"?
 
Story 0753

September 26, 1941, southwest of Leningrad


Whistles blew. Artillery fired again. This time the shells were mostly smoke with a few high explosive shells intermixed to force the defenders’ heads down. German infantrymen began to retreat through the no man’s land between the edge of the clearing and the start of the city’s freshly erected defenses. Sometimes the infantrymen retired in good order with their rifles ready and eyes probing for a possible counter-attack. Other times, two men used their combined three good legs to help each other to safety. The attack had failed. The panzers were exhausted so the infantry was now being used to pressure the defenders of Leningrad. They had some success for the first part of the morning but just as the lead assault groups were creating a bow in the Soviet lines, a tank regiment that started the war in Murmansk counter-attacked and the line was restored.
 
Story 0754
September 26, 1941, the Libyan Desert

The other listening and observation posts that held the line overnight were emptied. The men who were ahead of their compatriots in the main line of resistance had returned and then replaced by new men who would watch for an attack. They were accounted for and once the sergeants were satisfied that every man who left the night before was back under their loving and tender care, the men could eat.

This was true for all of the posts except one. The three men in that hole had not returned. The platoon sergeant informed the lieutenant who informed the captain. As the officers talked, the platoon started to get ready for combat. Within fifteen minutes, the captain had moved his small reserve into the platoon’s main position and the platoon went out into the desert heat.

An hour later, the men worked through their minefields and wires. Three men were carrying a body that had been bayoneted repeatedly. The other two men were nowhere to be found as the observation post was emptied of anything of value and the rucksacks ransacked.

The division sent in the report to Corps that night -- all quiet in the desert.
 
Story 0755
September 27, 1941 Suez

Georgio Averoff steamed past the freshly arrived convoy from America. The Red Sea was a low threat area but even still the American light cruiser Concord had escorted the dozen merchant ships from Aden to Port Suez. The ships carried trucks, they carried tanks, they carried boots, they carried lubricants, they carried spam, they carried the million and three items that an army needed. They also carried another ninety crated Tomahawk fighters that would be used as fighter bombers by the Royal Air Force. Crews would be working day and night to unload the American freighters and move their precious cargo to the Egyptian rail network for either shipment to the workshops in the Delta or for transhipment to Benghazi on local coasters. The first supplies might reach the army in a week but most of the mountain of abundance would need a month or more to be used at the front.

The crew of the Greek armored cruiser did not care. They had been assigned anti-raider duties in the Indian Ocean so they would soon start patrolling a triangle of Bombay to Mombasa to Aden.
 
Story 0756

September 28, 1941 Rostov, Russia


The city was in chaos. A pair of weapons factories evacuated from Kiev had attempted to set up in the city but even before their trains could be unloaded from the sidings that they occupied, commissars ordered them further east. Those trains continued past the Volga where the depth of Russia could offer some protection. Coastal shipping traffic from the Baltic and the Sea of Azov were tied up next to Don River barges. The port was its normal structured chaos as bulk was being broken left and right and new cargoes were being loaded to bring goods and raw materials into the Russian industrial heartland.

Overhead, a dozen new Hurricanes maintained a combat air patrol. A regiment of fighters had arrived the week before. The RAF had managed to ship one hundred modern machines from their reserves and formation creation stockpiles in Egypt and Palestine to the Soviet Union over the past month. Three dozen RAF technicians and four pilots had accompanied the planes to help the Soviet pilots on their new machines. Most of the Soviet pilots were experienced fliers who had seen their machines destroyed in the first week of the war. Very few rookie pilots were being sent to the front as there were still more pilots than planes.

Far more importantly, three reserve divisions were moving forward to the front. The Germans were pressing forward along the Sea of Azov with two infantry corps and some Romanians. The 9th Army needed reinforcements to hold the line, and these divisions had enough time to integrate survivors from the destruction battles along Dnieper. One division was marching, one division would take a train and the last division was riding in newly arrived Canadian pattern trucks.
 
Last edited:
Story 0757
September 29, 1941 Los Angeles

A ship left the harbor. She had three dozens new pursuit planes from North American Aviation onboard. She would be able to drop them off in a month at their final destination. Several miles away, a train left Los Angeles with another three dozen new planes from North American’s plant. They would be shipped to New York and then onto the Clyde.
 
Story 0758
September 30, 1941 south of Leningrad

Tatianna took a breath. She slowly chewed on the coarse brown bread that made up most of the rations that the woman’s rifle company could scrounge. She had joined in August as she could carry either a rifle or a shovel. Both could get her killed but a rifle and a shovel meant more food for her than merely a shovel.

German infantry divisions were pushing north again. The trench line was eleven miles from the city center, and she stayed deep in her fox hole waiting for the harassing artillery fire to cease. A company to the south was the primary target. Five minutes later, she was scanning the horizon again and in the distance, she spotted a German officer group huddled, still, underneath a tree. They were eight hundred yards away. Artillery would be ideal but there was no way a private could call in artillery. There was no way for her company commander to call in artillery fast enough.

She nudged her lieutenant's elbow. Her eyes opened widely and gave Tatianna permission to fire. She made herself comfortable against a sandbag and rested her rifle gently.

Everything became one image in her eyes. She slowed her breathing, she calmed herself and lined up her rifle sights at the maximum range and then lifted the the rifle some more. A single German officer became her entire world. She could never tell anyone why the rifle fired at the moment that it fired. She just knew without thinking too deeply that the firing solution was right, that the bullet would go exactly where she intended it to go. The rifle spat out the bullet on a long arcing trajectory.

She missed.

She missed by three inches.

Instead of punching clean through the center of the junction of German officer’s sternum and throat, the bullet ripped through the ribs of the man and tore open the left ventricle of his heart. She did not see her success. Instead, she had already ducked back into the trench and was running fifteen yards to her left as she knew German machine guns were already searching for the single puff of smoke. She knew German mortars would try to reach her.

That night, she was pulled out of the line company and sent to the regiment’s rear to meet with the zampolit and the commander as they were looking for sharp shooters.
 
Last edited:
Story 0758

October 1, 1941 Batavia, Java


The Catalina climbed into the air. The three passengers, two naval officers and an Army Air Corps colonel had thanked the Catalina crew for the pleasant flight to the conference with British, Australian, New Zealand and Dutch officers. It was officially a gathering of former Olympians but all of them happened to be serving officers who needed to coordinate plans for the defense of Western possessions in Southeast Asia.

Ensign Ted Sullivan did not care what the pretense was for the flight. It was his first long, overwater flight where he was the sole navigator. And they had arrived on time with only a slight correction needed once the civilian radio stations on Java could be heard. He had done his job. The crew had a night to relax and spend money like slightly buzzed sailors. He had a wonderful evening with the daughter of the gunnery officer from De Ruyter. She had asked for his mailing address and promised that she would write.

Now the Catalina was heading back to Luzon. The weight that had been used for the passengers was now being allocated to quinine tablets. Enough of the foul tasting pills were onboard the flying boat to treat every man that could be mobilized for a week.

Thirteen hours later, the flying boat touched down near the naval base at Subic Bay and by nightfall, the quinine had been off loaded and the crew had completed critical repairs. Tomorrow, they would fly again.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top