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Such a shame they didn't go into Dunkirk. The BEF might have been able to save some of it's equipment if they had.
No support equipment at the dockside in Dunkirk. The adjustable loading ramp was on the dock, not on the ships
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Yes, for instance the Interislander ferries in New Zealand couldn't operate for several days after the November 2016 earthquake due to damage to the loading ramps.
Sorry I wasn't clear with what I wrote. What I meant was if Dunkirk had been a Rail Ferry terminal they could have used the ferries to save some of the BEF's equipment.
Story 0752
September 25, 1941 75 miles South of Pearl Harbor
USS Enterprise turned into the wind. Two dozen Marine Corps Wildcats were lined up on her deck. Behind them a squadron of Marine Vindicators were warming their engines. As the carrier cut through the sea at nearly thirty knots, the flight deck ballet ascended in complexity. A fighter was launching every thirty to forty seconds and then the bombers followed behind them quickly. They started to sort themselves out and flew to their target.
Twenty miles away, USS Billings, a new light cruiser, was towing a large target one thousand yards astern. She was making a steady twenty five knots through the calm seas. Her radar room was keeping the captain informed of the incoming air strike. Her dual purpose guns were fully manned and swiveling towards the incoming dive bombers. Her light anti-aircraft cannons would have been needed to break up a dive bombing attack so they practiced tracking the bombers as they started to tip over into dives and drop 50 pound practice bombs on the target. Direct hits splattered the target with dye while misses colored the sea.
Even as the bombers were still attacking their training target, the Marine fighters turned around and began to descend back into the landing pattern. They would be able to get at least one touch and go for every fighter before the bombers were done. By nightfall, the carrier, her three heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and seven destroyers were heading back to port. The Marine dive bombers had managed to “sink” the target but their accuracy against a maneuvering ship was poor. They would need more practice but first they were practicing low light landings as they had taken off for Ewa minutes before twilight began.
USS Enterprise turned into the wind. Two dozen Marine Corps Wildcats were lined up on her deck. Behind them a squadron of Marine Vindicators were warming their engines. As the carrier cut through the sea at nearly thirty knots, the flight deck ballet ascended in complexity. A fighter was launching every thirty to forty seconds and then the bombers followed behind them quickly. They started to sort themselves out and flew to their target.
Twenty miles away, USS Billings, a new light cruiser, was towing a large target one thousand yards astern. She was making a steady twenty five knots through the calm seas. Her radar room was keeping the captain informed of the incoming air strike. Her dual purpose guns were fully manned and swiveling towards the incoming dive bombers. Her light anti-aircraft cannons would have been needed to break up a dive bombing attack so they practiced tracking the bombers as they started to tip over into dives and drop 50 pound practice bombs on the target. Direct hits splattered the target with dye while misses colored the sea.
Even as the bombers were still attacking their training target, the Marine fighters turned around and began to descend back into the landing pattern. They would be able to get at least one touch and go for every fighter before the bombers were done. By nightfall, the carrier, her three heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and seven destroyers were heading back to port. The Marine dive bombers had managed to “sink” the target but their accuracy against a maneuvering ship was poor. They would need more practice but first they were practicing low light landings as they had taken off for Ewa minutes before twilight began.
Story 0753
September 26, 1941, Philadelphia
The new light cruiser, USS Norfolk waited for her big sister, USS Lansing. Both ships had been released from the final post-acceptance repairs that morning. They would pick their way down the Delaware River and into the open sea before heading to San Juan for a month of training and working up. After that, the two new cruisers would use the Panama Canal to join the Pacific Fleet. Lansing was penciled to join the Saratoga task force while Norfolk would join the Battle Force. Ideally her rapid firing six inch guns would allow the battle line to operate without worrying about torpedo attacks from Japanese destroyers in the Marianas or the Luzon Straits. But before they could join the fleet, both cruisers had to wait for the damn tug boats to get them to the main shipping channel.
The new light cruiser, USS Norfolk waited for her big sister, USS Lansing. Both ships had been released from the final post-acceptance repairs that morning. They would pick their way down the Delaware River and into the open sea before heading to San Juan for a month of training and working up. After that, the two new cruisers would use the Panama Canal to join the Pacific Fleet. Lansing was penciled to join the Saratoga task force while Norfolk would join the Battle Force. Ideally her rapid firing six inch guns would allow the battle line to operate without worrying about torpedo attacks from Japanese destroyers in the Marianas or the Luzon Straits. But before they could join the fleet, both cruisers had to wait for the damn tug boats to get them to the main shipping channel.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Going on the assumption the Pacific war starts more or less on time as o.t.l. will you be giving us an order of battle i.t.t.l. compared to o.t.l. Would be very grateful if you can find the time for such posts.
Yes, I have one written for Der Tag minus a week. But pieces need to move a bit more
Donald Reaver
Donor
Awesome, looking forward to it, but can wait as this timeline as it is progressing timewise is great.
It seems that Billings, Norfolk and Lansing will be going to be at Pearl Harbor as part of the USPACFLT, joining their older siblings St. Louis and Helena. Should be interesting on how the AA firepower will increase when December 7 rolls around....
And how much of the mostly debugged quad 1.1 inch guns have been installed? And what bugs remained?
And how much of the mostly debugged quad 1.1 inch guns have been installed? And what bugs remained?
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
There is no doubt that the two major Axis powers, Germany and Japan, IOTL, managed to throw a lot of sixes. Italy however seemed to be constantly failing from day one, and only scored one win in the first six months of their involvement. And that was in an out of the way area, and wasn't truly exploitable. However with the benefits of hindsight, we can see that the weakness of the Axis powers was evident from the start. Had the French and British made a real effort to invade Germany, while they were fighting the Polish campaign, the Germans would have been in a world of hurt.
The Norwegian campaign was very much a Pyrrhic victory, as it saw the destruction of the German surface navy as an effective fighting force. And that along with the failure of the German Airforce during the Battle of Britain, scuppered any hopes of a successful invasion of Britain. With Britain still in the war, Germany was reliant on Russia for a lot of strategic imports, which she promptly invaded.
Thanks to events in Europe and the Middle East, along with facing the captain of the school third eleven. The Japanese were able to bluff their way to victory in the Malaysian Peninsula. We know that at the time of the Siege of Singapore, the Japanese were out of supplies and could have been pushed back to where they started from.
The butterflies ITTL, are now truly in flight, and the events from now are going to be increasing different from what they were IOTL. The failure of the Axis to capture Crete, and the absence of Rommel from North Africa, mean that the Middle East, is far more stable and less demanding than it was. And while the captain of the third eleven is still in charge in Malaysia, his leading batsman is first class, and isn't going to be bowled out by the opposition. The team in North Africa are grinding the opposition down and are within a year of a victory.
The Germans are deeper and stuck tightly to the tar baby that is the Russian campaign, and thus unable to intervene in North Africa, to any greater extent than they already are. Once the Italians in the Red Sea region are dealt with, and the North African Shore cleared. Britain is going to receive a major boost, as she can effectively ignore the Mediterranean Theatre, other than as a shipping route for the next twelve months. Time to train, experiment and absorb the lessons from the recent campaign, especially the forthcoming amphibious operations. There will be much less pressure to bring new equipment into service, before proper testing and training has taken place. This is especially true of armoured vehicles, as the present generation is more than adequate for combat in the Far East.
The shipping crisis in 42, as the German U-Boat arm got into its stride, will be greatly reduced. The Mediterranean route is worth five million tons of shipping, thanks to the reduction in transit times. And the ability to source some vital supplies from the area, rather than from the Americas. And the combination of 3% here, 2% there and 5% somewhere else, improvements will add up to something substantial by late 42, early 43. In spite of the upcoming problems in the Far East, and the diversion of resources that this will entail. The ability of the British to manage their involvement, and take part in as little of the war as best suites them in particular areas, is priceless. And once the Americans get dragged into the ongoing conflict, the war is essentially won, its just the method and timing that are in question.
RR.
The Norwegian campaign was very much a Pyrrhic victory, as it saw the destruction of the German surface navy as an effective fighting force. And that along with the failure of the German Airforce during the Battle of Britain, scuppered any hopes of a successful invasion of Britain. With Britain still in the war, Germany was reliant on Russia for a lot of strategic imports, which she promptly invaded.
Thanks to events in Europe and the Middle East, along with facing the captain of the school third eleven. The Japanese were able to bluff their way to victory in the Malaysian Peninsula. We know that at the time of the Siege of Singapore, the Japanese were out of supplies and could have been pushed back to where they started from.
The butterflies ITTL, are now truly in flight, and the events from now are going to be increasing different from what they were IOTL. The failure of the Axis to capture Crete, and the absence of Rommel from North Africa, mean that the Middle East, is far more stable and less demanding than it was. And while the captain of the third eleven is still in charge in Malaysia, his leading batsman is first class, and isn't going to be bowled out by the opposition. The team in North Africa are grinding the opposition down and are within a year of a victory.
The Germans are deeper and stuck tightly to the tar baby that is the Russian campaign, and thus unable to intervene in North Africa, to any greater extent than they already are. Once the Italians in the Red Sea region are dealt with, and the North African Shore cleared. Britain is going to receive a major boost, as she can effectively ignore the Mediterranean Theatre, other than as a shipping route for the next twelve months. Time to train, experiment and absorb the lessons from the recent campaign, especially the forthcoming amphibious operations. There will be much less pressure to bring new equipment into service, before proper testing and training has taken place. This is especially true of armoured vehicles, as the present generation is more than adequate for combat in the Far East.
The shipping crisis in 42, as the German U-Boat arm got into its stride, will be greatly reduced. The Mediterranean route is worth five million tons of shipping, thanks to the reduction in transit times. And the ability to source some vital supplies from the area, rather than from the Americas. And the combination of 3% here, 2% there and 5% somewhere else, improvements will add up to something substantial by late 42, early 43. In spite of the upcoming problems in the Far East, and the diversion of resources that this will entail. The ability of the British to manage their involvement, and take part in as little of the war as best suites them in particular areas, is priceless. And once the Americans get dragged into the ongoing conflict, the war is essentially won, its just the method and timing that are in question.
RR.
And also, with the containing of the Italian threat, Britain has much more of a hand choose on what they can send to the Far East. Since they are not tied up fighting Rommel and the uber Afrika Korps (ITTL, Rommel was bayonetted by a British solider who died in France and the commander who lead the Korps was much more cautious) and can actually contain them without much of a worry of more offensives, more forces can be spread elsewhere.
Agree with much of what you said except the specific issue quoted above
OTL by late 1941, the RN and (somewhat reluctantly) the RAF were just about coping with KM ... both U-boat arm and surface fleet.
They were winning the battle in the Eastern Atlantic, holding their own in Mid Atlantic if barely with the West relatively quiet due to politics.
Doenitz had lost most of his best crews and had been forced to disperse others for both valid tactical and dubious political reasons.
The shipping crisis of 1942 was entirely due to USN bad tactics on the US Eastern Seaboard and Caribbean
Over 25% of all shipping lost to the UBs in the whole war, worldwide were lost in those area in 6 months.
TTL throughout this tale Fester has been shifting that attitude as well as feeding significant resources into USN ASW capability.
IMHO this shift is the weakest part of this narrative. As far as I can see there has been no plausible justification for any such change
(except perhaps a completely understandable desire to remove this blot on the USNs record)
I agree that the USN has to get on the convoy bandwagon sooner, and also get the coastal towns to really blackout. However with the changes in the naval balance in the Atlantic, due to the relative weakening of the Axis threat in the Med, getting U-Boats to the US coast is going to be more difficult. If I remember correctly, the increase in the USN will mean more escorts available, even if not used most efficiently. also there are more airborne ASW assets for the US to utilize than OTL, and again even if not utilized in the best way still represents a plus for the US/USN. It also looks like escort carriers will be in the RN and USN sooner than OTL, another nail in the U-Boat arms coffin.
Everything won't be smooth sailing for the Allies, but the skids are greasier than OTL.
Everything won't be smooth sailing for the Allies, but the skids are greasier than OTL.
Doenitz was quite reactive, moving his boats to where he thought they could sink most at least cost. In these circumstances the main effort after the opening of US-German hostilities, whenever that is, may well be directed further south - Florida, the Caribbean - with just a few sorties up north (minelaying?).
Oh, I agree that Doenitz will attempt to move his boats to where the hunting is less dangerous. However the better ASW coverage throughout the Atlantic will make transit times longer, and more dangerous. The net result will be more U-boats sunk sooner than OTL, and fewer merchants sunk as compared to the same time OTL. Of course this spirals - up for the Allies with more ships available and fewer lost cargoes, and down for the Germans, fewer boats and experienced crews. The last would be the worst for Doenitz, as inexperienced crews led by inexperienced officers had lower scores and a higher loss rate. The "death spiral" starts much sooner here for the KM.
We've got enough WWII threads around that I may be misremembering, but IIRC @fester has explicitly said that the 2nd Happy Time will still happen, that the underlying tactical and strategic errors of the US are still there.
As for building more escorts, well, duh, if you're building more of everything else, you build more escorts. IIRC, too, some of the new escorts were earmarked for/sold to the Brits/Canadians. The huge advantage is that the small yards building small escorts are 1) already partly ramped up, and 2) building something better than the 'Oh, God, we need something NOW Flower class'.
Thus, US shipping lost in the first 6 months is still, IMO, going to be about 1/4 the total (or so), but those totals will be smaller, and so will the US losses.
This isn't a 'weak part', it's perfectly logical. In fact, I think he's gone TOO far (in what he's foreshadowed) in bending over backwards to keep US losses up.
To me it seems that the real life events of the second happy time are almost ASB. The USN and the Navy department had been observing the Battle of the Atlantic for better then 2 years and taking a gradually more active role in protecting the Atlantic convoys. And after all their experiences and observations that they're not better prepared for the entirely foreseeable U-boat offensive against American shipping after the German DOW is the unrealistic part.
If history had been different and somebody on an ATL history forum wrote a story describing the OTL Drumbeat there would be comments about Admirals drinking lead paint. Posters would say that the leadership from FDR on down would not allow the situation to unfold as it did.
So we will see how closely fester wants to follow the actual OTL events in his fine story. But considering how unlikely Drumbeat seems in retrospect than perhaps fester may decide that a more pro-active US Navy and Merchant Marine is plausible without compromising the realistic feel of this story.
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