Keynes' Cruisers

[sloreck]

FWIW the USMC immediately after WWI decided that it's role in the future was to be the amphibious warfare specialists, most particularly in support of WPO and seizing advance bases in the Pacific. Although, for a number of reasons, work on this in the 1920s was slow, by the 1930s the USMC spent a great deal of time and energy developing doctrine for this, with USN going along somewhat reluctantly but going along nonetheless. Equipment issues from large (landing craft) to small (cases for equipment that was salt water proof) were also dealt with. The US Army got on board in about 1938, using USMC instructors and doctrine publications to jump start its program.

The reality is that the Germans, who had some experience in WWI (Baltic Islands assault), never looked at this. The UK did sketch out some ship designs, but the doctrine and equipment effort was minimal. Japan, as expected, had two programs one for the navy and one for the army with little coordination. No doctrine was ever really thrashed out and OTL most of the Japanese amphibious assaults were either on undefended beaches, or those with minimal defenses. The one example of an defended assault was Wake, where the Japanese did very poorly against a small garrison, unfinished defenses, and with air superiority.

 

[Unknown]

Good updates; we are now at over 200k words (and, in story, we're 4 months from Pearl Harbor and the start of the Pacific War)...

Like how the butterflies keep flapping in some areas...

 

[diesal]

Good to see that the Dutch Destroyers are going to get more of a go.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Depends how far back you go, the UK did some very innovative work in 1917 but it never went anywhere after the war. Many of these things are very murky and were invented independently multiple times. Actually, I suspect a lot of the UK's views on opposed beach landings may have come from the Zeebrugge raid, which took very heavy casualties for marginal gains - something they had to learn again at Dieppe a few years later!

Don't forget the Beetles - following their hard-won & costly experience in the landings at Helles and Anzac, the British used these in the landings at Suvla Bay in August 1915. Self-propelled and armoured, along with a drop-down bow ramp: http://www.xlighter.org/

Using this the RN developed the Motor Landing Craft in 1920 that had the ability to transport and land a medium tank. Sadly the negative memories of the Gallipoli campaign and financial orthodoxy at the Treasury meant the RN could not follow through on amphibious warfare development.

 

[mudhead]

O-16 descended

The first submarine fitted with a snorkel.

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_ss_o16.htm

 

[Draconis]

I'd like to see Moscow fall to the Nazis like it did to Napoleon 130 years earlier. This doesn't mean that Russia will be defeated. But it will introduce an interesting change from OTL. And hopefully a fatal over reach for the Nazis as it did for Napoleon leading to an earlier defeat and retreat of the German army. And if the Fall of Moscow leads to a coup and the elimination of Stalin all the better.

 

[AlanJWhite]

The first submarine fitted with a snorkel.

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_ss_o16.htm

Commonly said but Not true ...

An early submarine snorkel was designed by James Richardson, an Assistant Manager at Scotts Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Greenock, Scotland as early as 1916, during World War I. Although the company received a British patent for the design, no further use was made of it—the British Admiralty did not accept it for use in their Royal Navy submarines.

In November 1926 Capt. Pericle Ferretti of the technical corps of the Italian Navy ran tests with a ventilation pipe installed on the submarine H 3. The tests were largely successful and a similar system was designed for the Sirena class, but was eventually scrapped; subsequent snorkel systems were not based on Ferretti's design

 

[phx1138]

here's another one.

That comes back 404, now, & the home page doesn't mention Norway or Oslo.

 

[fester]

August 7, 1941 Near Dunkirk

The sleek fighters nosed down. The single 20 millimeter cannon that was in the center of the nose cone fired. The twin .50 caliber machine guns also hammered away at two single barges tied up on the East mole. The sixth fighter in the sweep got lucky, half a dozen high explosive shells and two dozen .50 caliber slugs tore through the rear barge’s fuel tank, igniting a fire that could not be safely contained.

The first combat mission of the AeroCobra Mk.1 was a success. However as RAF 601 Squadron debriefed, the strange machine built around its cannon instead of its engine was still considered a temperamental and unusual courser.

 

[fester]

August 8, 1941 Lowell, Massachusetts

Silence hung over them. The heavy, humid air of summer spent in the third floor of a balloon-frame tenement walk-up was made even heavier by the needed melding of bodies and cavorting that the small bedroom had been the scene and witness to.

The two lovers, husband and wife, had been to dinner with both of their families earlier and now they were celebrating their first anniversary. It was a year where Elaine and Patrick had barely seen each other. Their marriage was one of weekend passes and rapid drives in her uncle’s car to Fort Devens or Camp Miles Standish, wherever the regiment was training that month and Patrick had the evening off.

He had been promoted again, to sergeant and in command of his own machine gun section. On Monday, he needed to start his journey to Fort Benning for specialized training for three weeks. This weekend would be the last time that he could see his wife until September. And even then, the rumors were getting stronger. They would not be discharged and demobilized. Instead the rumors were strong that the 182nd Infantry Regiment would soon be deployed. The regiment had stopped taking new draftees and was firing live ammunition on a weekly basis now. Something was up.

Across the bed, Elaine nuzzled her husband’s scratchy face with a half day’s growth of beard. He had changed since he had first asked her out to the movies. She had said yes mainly because she had wanted to see the Judy Garland flick but something happened at the soda fountain and she laughed hard and fully when Patrick had the option to be hard and instead chose to be soft. Now his entire body was strong and filled out as he moved with direct confidence that he knew how to solve a problem while also being willing to listen to her. He finally figured how to listen to her needs and wants and wishes.

Tonight they had taken no precautions. Tonight, they were allowing fate and biology to run its course. Tonight was for tonight as well as tomorrow. She was happy with her husband in bed. And now she was ready to lose herself again with him as they both knew how rare these chances were.

 

[RyderWest]

igniting a fighter that could not be safely contained.

Did the fighter bounce around Dunkirk like a bouncy ball, causing German troops to chase it yakety sax style?

 

[fester]

August 9, 1941 Near Petsamo

A machine gun fired to the left. Tracers reached out towards some movement along the scrub lands. The Russian defenders clenched their rifles tighter as they waited for their artillery to join the battle. The Germans had advanced past the neck of the Rybachy Peninsula, isolating a regiment of infantry but not forcing them to surrender. The Northern Fleet and British ships kept the defenders well supplied even as the rest of their division had stabilized the lines just east of the neck.

Artillery soon started to dig into the Arctic terrain. The 76 millimeter guns were answered by German field artillery and then each sides’ heavy guns began to search for each other as well. The experienced soldiers of the 14th Army continued to move towards better positions and better camouflage while the inexperienced SS regiments were attempting to fight in the Arctic but they did not know how to stay warm and stay under good cover in this unique terrain.

By the end of the evening, the lines had not moved at all. The Nazi storm troopers had been repulsed twice and a single battalion size counter-attack eliminated the only threatening gain that the Germans had made. Off to the south, the other Mountain Corps with a regiment of Finnish “volunteers” had limited success near Salla but their logistical situation was even worse than the northern force as roads in the northern Finnish forest would often not be dignified with the term of game path in Germany.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

August 7, 1941 Near Dunkirk

The sleek fighters nosed down. The single 20 millimeter cannon that was in the center of the nose cone fired. The twin .50 caliber machine guns also hammered away at two single barges tied up on the East mole. The sixth fighter in the sweep got lucky, half a dozen high explosive shells and two dozen .50 caliber slugs tore through the rear barge’s fuel tank, igniting a fire that could not be safely contained.

The first combat mission of the AeroCobra Mk.1 was a success. However as RAF 601 Squadron debriefed, the strange machine built around its cannon instead of its engine was still considered a temperamental and unusual courser.

???
So 'Aerocobra' instead of 'Airacobra', and 20mm instead of 37mm
Why the changes? I've searched the thread for other instances of either spelling and found nothing....

 

[fester]

???
So 'Aerocobra' instead of 'Airacobra', and 20mm instead of 37mm
Why the changes? I've searched the thread for other instances of either spelling and found nothing....

RAF spelling and equipment for their direct buy P-39s

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

RAF spelling and equipment for their direct buy P-39s

???
Hunh. OK, googling that spelling gets me lots of instances of spelling errors, and a few hits to the British version, although most actually refer to the Soviet LL planes. And of all those, only a single one ever referred to the 20mm cannon.

Wow! That's a lot of background work you must have done!

 

[gallen95]

???
Hunh. OK, googling that spelling gets me lots of instances of spelling errors, and a few hits to the British version, although most actually refer to the Soviet LL planes. And of all those, only a single one ever referred to the 20mm cannon.

Wow! That's a lot of background work you must have done!

Try under Bell P-39 Airacobra.
United Kingdom[edit]
In 1940, the British Direct Purchase Commission in the U.S. was looking for combat aircraft; they ordered 675 of the export version Bell Model 14 as the "Caribou" on the strength of the company's representations on 13 April 1940. The British armament was two nose mounted 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns, and four 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in the wings; the 37 mm gun was replaced by a 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano-Suiza cannon.

 

[fester]

Try under Bell P-39 Airacobra.
United Kingdom[edit]
In 1940, the British Direct Purchase Commission in the U.S. was looking for combat aircraft; they ordered 675 of the export version Bell Model 14 as the "Caribou" on the strength of the company's representations on 13 April 1940. The British armament was two nose mounted 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns, and four 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in the wings; the 37 mm gun was replaced by a 20 mm (.79 in) Hispano-Suiza cannon.

The P-39 is going to have roughly the same utilization patterns in TTL as OTL.

I wanted to do two things with the update:

1) Show the continuation of fighter sweep tactics over northern France.
2) Show roughly similar to OTL introduction of new machines to the RAF.

 

[AlanJWhite]

The P-39 is going to have roughly the same utilization patterns in TTL as OTL.

I wanted to do two things with the update:

1) Show the continuation of fighter sweep tactics over northern France.
2) Show roughly similar to OTL introduction of new machines to the RAF.

Sorry Fester, you have made a very significant change to OTL .

The RAF did indeed ordered P-39s in 1940 but they were delivered months later than promised (even those take up from a French order made even earlier)
Delivery was so slow that Only 4 P-39s reached 601 Squadron in August
and these were immediately withdrawn for many corrective modifications before any combat use.
They were only declared fit for operations in October and flew only for a few days before needing even more work.

Within weeks the P-39 was completely withdrawn from active RAF service and the other air frames delivered to the UK passed on to the Russians.
(In any case the bulk of the orders were retained by the US and served for the USAAF in SWPAC)

From http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-39_Airacobra_UK.html

The Bell Airacobra first entered service with the RAF, in October 1941, but only flew a handful of sorties before it was withdrawn from the front line.

British interest in the Airacobra began after the fall of France. One of the aircraft orders that was taken over from the French was for 170 Bell P-400 Airacobras. Deliveries had been due to begin in October 1940, but the first aircraft only reached Britain in the summer of 1941.

The British placed two further orders for the Airacobra I, bringing the total number of aircraft on order up to 675 aircraft, all before getting their hands on one of the aircraft. The first British pilot to fly the new fighter, Christopher Clarkson, made his first flight on 30 December 1940, in the United States, while the first aircraft to reach Britain were three P-39Cs which arrived by sea in July 1940.

These aircraft were soon assembled, and on 30 July 1941 tests began at the Fighter Development Unit at Duxford. These tests revealed that the Airacobra could out-turn and out-dive the Bf 109E at up to 15,000ft, but was “utterly useless” above 20,000ft. The top speed of the Airacobra also disappointed.

Only one RAF squadron ever received the Airacobra. No.601 “City of London” Squadron swapped its Hurricane IICs for Airacobras in August 1941, just in time to see the aircraft withdrawn to have twenty-five modifications made to the fuselage. The first four aircraft were finally declared operational in October 1941.

The Airacobra’s brief RAF combat career lasted from 9-11 October 1941. No.601 Squadron sent its four airworthy aircraft on two fighter sweeps to France, attacking a small number of ground targets. It was then withdrawn again after problems with the compass. During its time with No.601 Squadron five aircraft were lost in accidents, all said to be due to pilot error. The squadron never flew its Airacobra’s in action again, and in March 1942 replaced them with the Spitfire V.

Only eighty of the British Airacobras were assembled for the RAF. Of the remaining aircraft around 200 were quickly dispatched to the Soviet Union, while the rest remained in the United States, and as the P-400 fought on New Guinea and Guadalcanal.

Aside:I have always been puzzled why the RAF would give up Hurricane IIC with 4 20 mm cannon for an aircraft with less that half the firepower.

 

[fester]

Sorry Fester, you have made a very significant change to OTL .

The RAF did indeed ordered P-39s in 1940 but they were delivered months later than promised (even those take up from a French order made even earlier)
Delivery was so slow that Only 4 P-39s reached 601 Squadron in August
and these were immediately withdrawn for many corrective modifications before any combat use.
They were only declared fit for operations in October and flew only for a few days before needing even more work.

Within weeks the P-39 was completely withdrawn from active RAF service and the other air frames delivered to the UK passed on to the Russians.
(In any case the bulk of the orders were retained by the US and served for the USAAF in SWPAC)

From http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_P-39_Airacobra_UK.html



Aside:I have always been puzzled why the RAF would give up Hurricane IIC with 4 20 mm cannon for an aircraft with less that half the firepower.

So a limited fighter sweep in early August TTL vs. initial delivery to the squadron in early August is a very significant change given that I've dumped several tens of million dollars into US fighter production year(s) earlier. Especially since the plane is noted in TTL to be "strange" and "temperamental and unusual" . If there are more than three dozen RAF combat sorties of this type in TTL, I would be shocked.

 

[Draconis]

???
Hunh. OK, googling that spelling gets me lots of instances of spelling errors, and a few hits to the British version, although most actually refer to the Soviet LL planes. And of all those, only a single one ever referred to the 20mm cannon.

Wow! That's a lot of background work you must have done!

Try googling the Bell P-400.