How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't quite a few of the civilian deaths in the Tokyo firebombing result from asphyxiation anyway? That is, they weren't burned to death directly (as they were hiding in the rivers, etc), but the firestorm was so strong that it used up all the oxygen in the area.

When a city is area bombed with incendiaries, sufficient to cause a firestorm, then a great many of the deaths will be due to asphyxiation as you describe, in addition to all the people literally sucked into the flames by the firestorm, or burned by flames or radiant heat.

To be honest, I know I might be in something of a minority, but I tend to think that killing people, whether by bayonet, bullet, bomb, incendiary, gas, bioweapons, etc is pretty barbaric full stop. I'm not sure the particular method employed makes a lot of difference.
 
In 1944 to say, 1955 or so, sure. By the 2000s? yes, questions will be raised. Consider the modern debates over the use of the A-Bomb, and the general consensus that interning Japanese-Americans was a crime and a black mark on US History.

At the same time, there's never been a lot of moral debate over the use of gas in World War I (probably because no one remembers World War I, but still), or for that matter the use of strategic bombing, especially low-level incendiary attacks by the Allies. At best, the latter is used as a tool in arguments about the morality of other actions, primarily the atomic bomb, not handled in its own right as a moral question. Although I know in the '20s there was plenty of literature condemning the use of gas, that was usually tied to a broader anti-war feeling, and wasn't directed against just gas. I could see the use of chemical weapons here being treated by more or less everyone as bad, but inevitable given the degree of Japanese resistance and their bioattacks on the US, and, if the atomic bomb is used, being brought up in debates over that, but otherwise left as a moral question mainly to pacifists.
 
At the same time, there's never been a lot of moral debate over the use of gas in World War I (probably because no one remembers World War I, but still), or for that matter the use of strategic bombing, especially low-level incendiary attacks by the Allies. At best, the latter is used as a tool in arguments about the morality of other actions, primarily the atomic bomb, not handled in its own right as a moral question. Although I know in the '20s there was plenty of literature condemning the use of gas, that was usually tied to a broader anti-war feeling, and wasn't directed against just gas. I could see the use of chemical weapons here being treated by more or less everyone as bad, but inevitable given the degree of Japanese resistance and their bioattacks on the US, and, if the atomic bomb is used, being brought up in debates over that, but otherwise left as a moral question mainly to pacifists.

truth is life

It might weaken the restraints on use of gas or strengthen them, given the impact of their use, especially [probably by the sound of the TL] on a large scale against Japan and Germany.

There was a large scale revulsion against the use of gas in WWI. Hence the 1925 Geneva Agreement against no 1st use, which I think the uS was the only major power not to sign. [Possibly also the Soviets as I'm not sure of their status at that point internationally]. Also it was a prominant point in a lot of speculative fiction about a future war.

Steve
 
A lot depends on how horrific the results of WWII gas & bio attacks are. IMHO the Unit 733 attacks in China, which never real hit public consciousness will be very outed here. One of the reasons atomic weapons were not used after WWII, in spite of some occasions where there use was considered, was that everyone had seen and realized how really bad using them could be - not just a bigger boom for the buck. Its entirely possible that the net result here will be less worry about the morality of the US/Allies using gas/firebombing/atomic weapons but on the other hand a determination to see these were never, ever used again. While defensive research against bioweapons will be bigger and better than OTL, you may likely see international treaties against offensive research much sooner than OTL. Of course some folks may attempt to avoid complying as OTL, but if somebody (say the USSR) is shown to be cheating it won't necessarily lead to war but trade sanctions, no food sales which could be quite devastating and cause a change in behavior.
 

Geon

Donor
Goering and Von Braun/Update for NATJAB/Musings of Hirohito

Here is another update. I have to admit I am rather amazed at the level of discussion on Operation Carthage and its pros and cons. I will simply say this. The rage in the U.S. has been raised to a fever pitch by these attacks. And as a result the Americans are now taking their gloves off. I agree with many on this site that point out that in many ways this is no different from the fire bombings of Tokyo or Dresden. In war we establish rules of behavior that we hope the other side will follow. But as has often been discovered for many the only rule in war is to win. Or to paraphrase General Patton - "The idea is not for you to die for your country, but to make the enemy die for his country!" I am also a big believer in something I believe General Sherman once said, "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we become too fond of it."
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Date: November 19, 1944
Location: Germany (Karinhall)
Time: 1:00 p.m. (German time)

At Karinhall, the opulent estate of Hermann Goering Reichmarshall of the Luftwaffe, a private meeting was being conducted between Dr. Werner Von Braun, and Goering.

Dr. Von Braun most definitely could think of any number of places he would rather be then here. The opulence of the place showed the arrogance and decadence of the man before him. For the thousandth time he asked himself how he had allowed his work which was meant to take humankind into space to be subverted into weapons of war. He knew the answer of course, without the military’s big pocket book he would still be testing small rockets out in a field some where and begging pennies from the wealthy to keep up his experiments. Like it or not he needed the military for now.

Goering relaxed behind his ornate desk a glass of one of his fine wines in his hand. “Dr. Von Braun, I have requested your presence in order to learn from you personally the progress on preparing our “special,” strike against the Allies. Will everything be ready by X-day?”

Dr. Von Braun answered, “The 20 specially modified V-1s you requested will be delivered to the forward air base no later then December 3rd as you requested. Unfortunately the A4bs initial testing has not gone well. We lost another one yesterday.” Goering frowned. “The A4b is a vital part of the revised plan for Watch on the Rhine; I can tell you the Fuehrer will not be pleased if we have to cancel that particular part of the plan.” Von Braun replied, “I have my men working night and day to correct the problems Reichmarshall. However, I can make no guarantees. Funding for the A4b has been sporadic until recently. Even if we get a working model ready by the end of the month the most I can promise you is one or two at most by the beginning of mid-December.” “Two should be more then enough for what is planned,” Goering declared. “Now, one other matter, what about the dispersal mechanisms?” “There is no guarantee that they will work Reichmarshall, in any case that is not in my area of expertise,” said Von Braun. That is a polite fiction, thought Von Braun; I distanced myself from that whole area of the project because I wanted no part of what was planned. I am a scientist not a mass murderer! Of course, his conscience often posed the question of how he could justify the thousands of deaths already caused by his other creations, the V1 and the V2. At least when this is over I can truthfully say I never participated directly in the “special preparation,” of the vehicles. Of course, that might simply earn me life in a military prison rather then a hangman’s noose.

Goering continued, “I will be sending another team of Luftwaffe technicians to Nordhausen as soon as possible, Dr. Von Braun. We need those A2bs ready by no later then December 17th, the day after “Watch on the Rhine,” starts. And we need to be certain those mechanisms work. We have a chance here to deal the allies a blow…”

Dr. Von Braun interrupted him, “I’m fully aware of what we have the capability of doing Reichmarshall, “he said. The last thing I need is another pep talk from you or any of the others in this madhouse! If your plans succeed my biggest concern is that when this is all over the Allies will simply line up all of us and shoot us rather than waste time and money on trials.

Hermann Goering frowned. After Hitler had ordered these “special operations,” planned he had talked privately with Goering. What Hitler wanted was very ambitious and if successful would hit the Allies in several places at once with devastating force. But it would also raise the stakes in the war even higher, as if the survival of the Fatherland wasn’t a high enough stake! The magnitude of what was being proposed was enough to make the Reichmarshall decide on several personal decisions. He was in the process of weaning himself off of his morphine habit and had ordered his personal chefs to change the menus putting himself on a weight loss diet with the help of a Luftwaffe physician. He also now took a vigorous 5 mile walk each day on his estate to aid in losing weight. He needed to be healthy in mind and body for what was coming.

If the plan worked the Allies would be thrown into disarray in the West and the way would be opened to deal with the Russians in the East in the spring. Hitler would demand all remaining Luftwaffe forces then be diverted eastward for the already planned counteroffensive there, again using “special measures,” such as were planned in the West. If the plan failed it would destroy the remaining reserves that Germany had and there would be no question but that the Reich would fall by summer of ’45 at the latest. And there was no question the Allies would counterattack with their own “special measures,” during that time. Germany would likely cease to exist.

Hermann Goering was no coward, as an ace fighter pilot in World War I he had faced death many times in the skies over Germany and France. But he was also no fool. If this gamble failed then it spelled the end of Germany and most likely prison or death for its leadership. Neither was a fate acceptable to Goering. He had already seen to the safety of his family. Now he was preparing an escape plan that would be implemented if the Fuehrer’s plans failed. If Germany fell he was not going to go down with it.

As he considered this Goering spoke, “Dr. Von Braun, I think we can speak frankly with each other. I am fully aware of your opposition to the special plan the Fuehrer has developed. I can appreciate your feelings. You are a scientist and not a soldier. But, I urge you to remember that success in this present endeavor will mean ever more funding for you and your work after the war is over. I have read a great deal of your papers on your long-range plans such as sending a rocket into space or even to the moon. I would like to see Germany be the first to plant its flag there. These things will happen, but only if we see this through to the end!”

“Of course, Herr Reichmarshall,” said Dr. Von Braun. "I will telephone my staff at Nordhausen to expect your team first thing tomorrow morning.”

As the meeting ended Dr. Von Braun remembered a story he had read in his youth, Faust. He wondered if this was how Faust had felt after he had concluded his deal with Mephistopheles.

Date: November 20, 1944
Location: Washington, D.C. (OCD)
Time: 9:00 a.m.

Once more NATJAB gathered at the Office of Civilian Defense to analyze the numbers of the previous night.

Cities/ Number of Casualties/ Deaths/ Special
Los Angeles/ 2,349/ 252
St. Louis/ 125/ 71
New York/ 88/ 39
Seattle/ 15/ 10
Portland/ 10/ 8
Youngstown/ 13/ 8
Detroit / 35/ 10
San Bernadino/ 3/ 1/ contained
San Francisco/ 6/ 3/ contained
Chicago/ 2/ 1/ contained
Oakland/ 2/ 1/ contained
Atlanta / 1/ 1/ contained
Total Infected: 2,649 Total Deaths: 405

The news today was mixed. The number of new cases in Los Angeles was slowly declining. NATJAB officials concurred with their Los Angeles counterparts that barring any new catastrophe the worst might be over and the plague fully contained by Christmas or the end of the year. But as long as new cases were reported it was agreed that emergency measures needed to be maintained. Absenteeism from war production plants was still too high and there were still people leaving the city to escape the plague. It was hoped however that with the declining number of people infected also would come a declining chance of further infection from that city.

Less promising were the figures received from New York and St. Louis. The plague riots had exacerbated an already bad situation. As a result the numbers of infected in those cities were expected to climb. St. Louis was already using several old warehouses that had been hurriedly renovated and turned into emergency hospitals to care for victims with the disease. New York was readying bed space in its own military hospitals to receive plague victims as well. It was hoped that such drastic measures were not needed elsewhere in the country.

Another worrying problem was Detroit. Patient Zero had yet to be found. The FBI had now been called in to help in locating him. If he was not found soon, assuming he was still alive, the situation in Detroit could easily spiral out of control as it had in St. Louis and New York.

NATJAB was starting to be cautiously more and more optimistic about the outcome of all of this. They didn’t know yet about the Fu-Go balloons and the cargo they were now dropping on the plains of Montana, Wyoming and the Dakotas.

Date: November 20, 1944
Place: Tokyo (The Imperial Palace)
Time: 7:00 a.m. (Tokyo Time)

Twenty four hours after the first raid of Operation Carthage the Emperor Hirohito was listening to the reports of the damage and casualties from the first raids on Osaka. “At present we estimate approximately 25,500 are dead from the raid and an additional 60,000 are wounded. The fact that the population was trained in the use of gas masks and knew how to use them seems to have prevented the numbers from being greater.” As if the numbers aren’t bad enough, thought the Emperor, Over twenty five thousand dead and this is just a preliminary estimate!” The damage to the industrial section of Osaka was severe and it was unknown how soon the factories would be back in operation. Hirohito hardly heard the rest of the report. He dismissed the aide but then called him back and asked. “How many planes did we manage to shoot down?” The aide looked down at the papers. “The army says that 7 bombers were shot down,” he said, “The fate of the crews is unknown-at least the report doesn’t say.” “Find out.” Hirohito said simply. “Sir,” the aide inquired? “Find out if any survivors of the bombers were recovered. If any were I want to know.” The aide nodded and hurried out to comply with the orders of his Emperor.

Alone Emperor Hirohito thought, It is now up to the Portuguese Ambassador and the messages I have given him. If he succeeds we may yet have a chance of averting a cataclysm. In the meantime there are steps I may be able to take to steer events here so that we avoid – what is the name that the Christians use to describe the final battle – Armageddon?

Quietly the Emperor arose to go pray at the Shinto shrine where he had prayed constantly for the past fifteen days since the start of all of this. He was becoming a very big believer in prayer; his nation would have great need of it in the months ahead.
 
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Garrison

Donor
I hadn't thought about the implications for the space race but I suspect Von Braun is being wildly optimistic there. His position was precarious enough IOTL but here he'll be lucky if some US soldier doesn't just gun him down when he tries to surrender.

As for Goering; he finally takes some positive action and its entirely about saving his own skin of course...:rolleyes:
 
Yeah I think Von Braun may be too hot to handle if what we all think is in store happens, space exploration will still happen but without Von Braun the American effort is likely to be several years behind OTL.
 
Good update.

Von Braun's likely fate TTL:

Von Braun: I surrender---

(Several American soldiers open fire on him, riddling him with bullets.)

American soldier: That's for all the people you killed, you bastard!!!
 

Garrison

Donor
Yeah I think Von Braun may be too hot to handle if what we all think is in store happens, space exploration will still happen but without Von Braun the American effort is likely to be several years behind OTL.

Could be more than that if the Allies make an all out effort to take out the research and production facilities.
 
Yeah I think Von Braun may be too hot to handle if what we all think is in store happens, space exploration will still happen but without Von Braun the American effort is likely to be several years behind OTL.

The effect of von Braun and the rest of the Germans on the American space program is usually overstated. Dramatically. That's not to say they didn't make contributions, but most American launch vehicles were designed with little or no direct input from them (the Atlas, for example, or the Titan), and even for the ones that did have significant input most of the actual work was, of course, done by Americans. von Braun's biggest impact was probably publicity, not actual development.
 

Garrison

Donor
Talk of rocketry reminds me the US have these available at this point:

JB-2 Loon

Could be nasty if production can be stepped up and they're fitted with chemical warheads. Useful if you don't want to risk aircrews with the stuff.
 
The effect of von Braun and the rest of the Germans on the American space program is usually overstated. Dramatically. That's not to say they didn't make contributions, but most American launch vehicles were designed with little or no direct input from them (the Atlas, for example, or the Titan), and even for the ones that did have significant input most of the actual work was, of course, done by Americans. von Braun's biggest impact was probably publicity, not actual development.

I agree that the German impact was overstated, but Dolph Thiel oversaw development of the Thor and was involved with the development of the Atlas and Titan (all R-W projects). The Redstone and Orbiter were ABMA projects. So no Paperclip means some delay. More for the Soviets, perhaps.
 

Artatochor

Banned
A fitter, saner Göring?:eek: Oh, dear, the special operation might just work, if von Braun takes the warning seriously.
 
To be honest, I know I might be in something of a minority, but I tend to think that killing people, whether by bayonet, bullet, bomb, incendiary, gas, bioweapons, etc is pretty barbaric full stop. I'm not sure the particular method employed makes a lot of difference.

I agree with you completely. It's always amazed me that people make some sort of moral differentiation between shoving a yard of steel (bayonet) into someone's guts and have them die of peritonitis and using gas to asphyxiate them. It's all killing. Dead is dead.
 
I agree that the German impact was overstated, but Dolph Thiel oversaw development of the Thor and was involved with the development of the Atlas and Titan (all R-W projects). The Redstone and Orbiter were ABMA projects. So no Paperclip means some delay. More for the Soviets, perhaps.

Siddiqi sums up the German contribution to the Soviet space program as

Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge said:
There is no doubt that the Soviet Union beneifted from A-4 [V2] technology in developing its early ballistic missiles...On the other hand, the available evidence suggests that Korolev and his team made very little use of German expertise, at least after 1947. Their influence over the direction of the Soviet ballistic missile program was marginal at best...In purely technical terms, the gains to the Soviets were in such areas as the design of guidance systems and test and launch equipment. Perhaps some of the more advanced managerial techniques among the Germans may also have found their way into Soviet institutions.

(emphasis Siddiqi's)

So probably less for the Soviets...but in both cases, the main German contribution was an existence proof (showing that military long-range ballistic missiles were possible and practical) and the technical details of the A-4/V2 itself, which did not require the Germans themselves. Not having the Germans around would slow both of them down some. But in both the United States and especially the Soviet Union there was a large amount of native talent, which particularly in the case of the US tended to be sidelined in favor of the Germans. My belief is that if all the Germans suddenly disappeared in 1945, the main difference to the space programs of both countries would be in their details, not in the main thrust of things...although I acknowledge reasonable people can disagree with this.
 
Good update.

Von Braun's likely fate TTL:

Von Braun: I surrender---

(Several American soldiers open fire on him, riddling him with bullets.)

American soldier: That's for all the people you killed, you bastard!!!

The smart thing to do would be for him to not identify himself, at least at first.
 
In fact Wernher von Braun was, just escaped from Death: in March 14, 1944 He was in prision of Gestapo for high treason !
because he speak public in tavern about the use of spaceship to send people, into space, even to the Moon.
the accusation by Gestapo on Von Braun is a "defeatist" attitude toward War Effort (death penalty) try to escape to England (death penalty)
including Himmler's false charges that von Braun was a communist sympathizer and had attempted to sabotage the V-2 program (death penalty)
last one was successful plot by Himmler to secure the V2 program under his control.
The only thing that save Von Braun from execution, he was technical genius with Rockets and Dornberger statement that on Braun was vital for V2 program success.

in end of march, Himmler got the V2 program and Von Braun was forced to become member of the SS.
waffen-ss-wernher-von-braun-nazi-uniform.jpg

That is only picture of Von Braun waring the SS Uniform, but is obscured by Himmler

The SS start to build in record time, the biggest underground production site the world had seen: MITTELWERK GmbH, near Nordhausen in center of the Reich.
it's one of most dark and brutal moments of Mankind, were the SS killed ten thousands of Concentration camp prisoner only to build this site, until they die of enfeeblement.
and even killing more by letting them work in V1 & V2 production until they literal drop death.
that was the environment Wernher Von Braun had to work there

and in this TL he got Göring on his neck too...
 
Geon

Well that sounds like as well as using nerve gas during the Battle of the Bulge the Germans are going to try some long ranged attack against the US. Most likely they will get lucky and none will actually reach the US, although that wouldn't rule out the Nazis doing something really stupid and announcing their 'successful attack' for propaganda purposes. If the US is successfully attacked by such long range weapons it could take some of the pressure off Japan as the US will probably want to concentrate on Germany 1st, since until they have knowledge of the anthrax attack they may think the Japanese lack the ability to attack them again.

Even if they don't I can see a very strong reaction by Britain to cripple as much as possible the German ability to launch any attacks on the UK.

Steve
 
I do like von Braun's brooding on Faust and his sale of his soul to the Nazis. Some of his defenders have cited an incident where he complained about the conditions the laborers were in and was threatened with being put on the line himself, so he hadn't become totally inhuman.
 
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