How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

[Michel Van]

I don't think that they really need to rush things along A-bomb-wise. What's being dropped right now will be just as likely to make whoever survives to be hanged by the States to say that he never expected the Americans to resist as forcefully as they did. Funny thing about the IJA and the Nazis...they never understood that people wouldn't quit no matter how cruel they themselves were. The Nuremberg and Tokyo war crimes trials were all about how they never expected the level of resistance they faced.

Hitler wanted not give up, in end he belief (like his entourage claims) that [WW2] was like Seven Years' War and that Third Reich would be save by miracle just like Prussia.
eider by miracle weapon aka the V series or that one of Allies drop out race like Russia in end of Seven Years' War...
this bullheadedness of Hitler, combine with blind obedience (almost religiously) belief in Hitler of his subordinate and people, Germany was still ready to ran with Hilter into Hell...
(thanks to the Propaganda Machine of Joseph Goebbels)

Japan Empire had cultural/social Problem of obedience and follow order into certain death, without question them.
There allot of bizarre cases in WW2, like Japanese Soldiers who following there last order and were still in war in pacific until 1980s.
or this notorious case were a entire Japanese bomber fleet got wipe out by USNavy Hellcats, because the Japanese's Fleet commander refuse to take countermeasures and his subordinate obeyes him loyal into death...

 

[LeX]

So two people are asked about the best way to prosecute the war in Vietnam. One says to nuke the north and force them to surrender whilst the other says to send thousands of American soldiers to die in the jungle. And the one who wants to use nukes is the psychopath..... right.

*Implying that thousands of Americans are worth more than millions of Vietnamese.

While I don't think Lemay was a psychopath and don't think him a war criminal given the circumstances, his actions put him pretty low in my eyes.

 

[joea64]

I'm going to say the same thing I said in the "Liberty's Century" thread.

Arguments as to the morality of strategic bombing in World War II and the character of Curtis LeMay belong in Chat, not in this story thread. Please take those debates there and let Geon proceed with the story he has to tell.

 

[Garrison]

I'm going to say the same thing I said in the "Liberty's Century" thread.

Arguments as to the morality of strategic bombing in World War II and the character of Curtis LeMay belong in Chat, not in this story thread. Please take those debates there and let Geon proceed with the story he has to tell.

Indeed; the US response seems entirely plausible in the timeframe and I don't see any of this discussion about LeMay's character contributing to this marvellous timeline.

 

[joea64]

Indeed; the US response seems entirely plausible in the timeframe and I don't see any of this discussion about LeMay's character contributing to this marvellous timeline.

Exactly. Seeing that Japan has attacked the U.S. with bubonic plague, sickening thousands and killing hundreds, causing civil unrest and other disruptions - and has just successfully landed an anthrax attack on U.S. livestock, with what consequences we don't know yet - and also seeing that Nazi Germany has dispatched Otto Skorzeny to carry out a similar attack against the U.S., it's kind of rich in any event for people to be debating the morality of retaliatory actions by the U.S. ITTL.

 

[Derek Pullem]

*Implying that thousands of Americans are worth more than millions of Vietnamese.

While I don't think Lemay was a psychopath and don't think him a war criminal given the circumstances, his actions put him pretty low in my eyes.

Actually no.

It's the same argument used for dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not only do they save American lives but they would "save" many more Japanese lives too.

Over 2 million Vietnamese died between Le May's comments about bombing them back to the stone age (I don't think he said with nukes but I accept that he would not have made a huge distinction) in 1965 and 1972.

The specifics aren't relevant to story line but the "logic" of strategic warfare certainly is.

A massive bombing campaign which ended the war (debatable point - it did in '72 temporarily, would it in '65?) without escalation elsewhere (also debatable) may have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Even if Hanoi was flattened.

 

[General Mosh]

The Nazis carried out orders to commit genocide. Are you saying General LeMay was ordered by the United States Government to commit genocide? Your proof, please.

While not genocide, bombing civilians with mustard gas (yes, I know you were talking about OTL, but as joea64 said, that kind of discussion belongs in Chat) seems like a war crime. And while in TTL the US will undoubtedly win and LeMay probably won't be charged with anything, Operation Carthage is going to be a major point of controversy in the years following.

 

[Wet Coast]

I will respect the wishes of several members and drop the subject but I do object to the fact that some people seem free to fling about accusations and insults but as soon as there is an attempt to refute them we are told that this is an inappropriate venue. I can understand not wanting to derail a thread so perhaps if members desperately wish to accuse someone of being a psychopath that they also do so elsewhere.

 

[NHBL]

counter-escalation...

The USA did not start with chemical/biological weapons, but retaliated against a first use. IMVHO, the vast majority of people, unless presented with a very biased account, would consider this to be an appropriate responce to this escalation of the war (Of course, biased accounts are part and parcel of how history is often taught.)

 

[Michel Van]

In OTL they dispute about the political imperative on use of Atomic Bomb on Japan or the Bombardment of Dresden.

In Geon TL there will no dispute about this, the Reasoning will be:
They attack us with Bio weapons first, we just striking back harder to force them to stop further attacks.
and we have the right, by any mean necessary to stop them, with use of Gas, biological or Atomic weapons.

and belief me the US citizen in this TL will cheer on news of Operation Carthage.

 

[NHBL]

stopping atacks...

Until these attacks, the mainland USA was safe, but it's not now--especially in the minds of the population. And it doesn't take massive factories to keep attacking the USA--factories that can be anhiliated from the air. These ballons could be hidden anywhere, and each one has the potential for mass death in the USA--who knows what else might be carried in balloons.

Thus,, you could easily argue, from strict military logic of protecting your own homeland, that the war must be won as fast as humanly possible--if not faster. In other words, there's a good arguement to be made that NOTHING is off limits, now that bio weapons have been used.

IIRC, that's American doctrine to this day--if bio weapons are used, nuclear responce is very much on the table...and that's in an era where we inderstand these weapons.

 

[Ian the Admin]

General LeMay was not a war criminal. Period. He carried out the missions given him.

You just reported three people saying you were "offended" that they critized LeMay (a historical public figure who is open to any and all criticism on this point). I'm giving you a warning for abusing the post reporting system for frivolous reasons.

 

[LeX]

Actually no.

It's the same argument used for dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not only do they save American lives but they would "save" many more Japanese lives too.

Over 2 million Vietnamese died between Le May's comments about bombing them back to the stone age (I don't think he said with nukes but I accept that he would not have made a huge distinction) in 1965 and 1972.

The specifics aren't relevant to story line but the "logic" of strategic warfare certainly is.

A massive bombing campaign which ended the war (debatable point - it did in '72 temporarily, would it in '65?) without escalation elsewhere (also debatable) may have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Even if Hanoi was flattened.

Sure, kinda. I see where you're coming from. I guess my perception is colored because I simply don't see the North Vietnamese in the same light as the Japanese.
Also the Japanese were not fighting an asymmetrical war. They were very clearly being defeated everywhere. The war being ended sooner was sure to mean the cessation of major hostilities. But Vietnam? Remember that the DMZ was not even being violated. Remember that the Vietcong were the ones partially responsible for giving us headaches. If people are in a total war and have nothing to lose they will fight on until they are annihilated. Leaving aside nuking N. Vietnam into the stone age (which would kill far more than the 3 million locals who died IOTL), you wouldn't be able to crush them decisively. Not to mention you have the potential/actual support of both China and the USSR. LeMay was just taking what he found worked on Japan and transferring it to Nam.

As for this discussion, if Geon doesn't want it here he can request that we stop.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Also the Japanese were not fighting an asymmetrical war.

Arguably that is exactly what Japan is doing now ATL (by resorting to bioweapons) and USA's response is to "bomb them back to the stone age".

Vietnam is irrelevant to this story line but your comment about populations fighting on in "total war" scenarios is interesting. Japan, Germany and the USA all believe that their opponents will blink first.

Certainly the experience from WW1 suggested there was a limit to the sacrifice a population (and to a lesser extent an army) will take. Our hindsight from WW2 suggests that thousands of casualties a raid do not crush civilian morale. It us debatable if the tens of thousands and the annihilation of cities by atom bombs crushed Japanese morale. certainly the firebombing of Tokyo did not (immediately anyway).

 

[Garrison]

As for this discussion, if Geon doesn't want it here he can request that we stop.

Well he posted on Wednesday:

Secondly, this will be my last update until Friday, so please read and enjoy all!

So I suspect he is busy with real life and hasn't had a chance to read the discussion yet. Perhaps it would be courteous to call a halt until he has the chance to do so and say whether he's happy for it to continue?

 

[MerryPrankster]

While not genocide, bombing civilians with mustard gas (yes, I know you were talking about OTL, but as joea64 said, that kind of discussion belongs in Chat) seems like a war crime. And while in TTL the US will undoubtedly win and LeMay probably won't be charged with anything, Operation Carthage is going to be a major point of controversy in the years following.

What moral difference is there between bombing civilians with mustard gas or bombing civilians with high explosive?

The fact a "WMD" is used is going to excite some people, but considering how gas was routinely used in WWI and the U.S. only broke the gas out after a Japanese first-use of bio-weapons that has already caused all sorts of problems despite its low casualty rate, I think people in TTL aren't going to freak out all that much.

 

[ScrewySqrl]

What moral difference is there between bombing civilians with mustard gas or bombing civilians with high explosive?

The fact a "WMD" is used is going to excite some people, but considering how gas was routinely used in WWI and the U.S. only broke the gas out after a Japanese first-use of bio-weapons that has already caused all sorts of problems despite its low casualty rate, I think people in TTL aren't going to freak out all that much.

In 1944 to say, 1955 or so, sure. By the 2000s? yes, questions will be raised. Consider the modern debates over the use of the A-Bomb, and the general consensus that interning Japanese-Americans was a crime and a black mark on US History.

 

[LeX]

Mustard gas is about the same as firebombing. Would you rather your lungs be burned out, or your whole body incinerated [relatively slowly]? Both are just as ghastly, except that the toxic chemical from the gas might last a bit longer. If it were something like nerve gas, that would be much worse, however, since that stuff lasts a long time and is much more potent.

 

[mcdo]

Mustard gas is about the same as firebombing. Would you rather your lungs be burned out, or your whole body incinerated [relatively slowly]? Both are just as ghastly, except that the toxic chemical from the gas might last a bit longer. If it were something like nerve gas, that would be much worse, however, since that stuff lasts a long time and is much more potent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't quite a few of the civilian deaths in the Tokyo firebombing result from asphyxiation anyway? That is, they weren't burned to death directly (as they were hiding in the rivers, etc), but the firestorm was so strong that it used up all the oxygen in the area.

 

[MerryPrankster]

In 1944 to say, 1955 or so, sure. By the 2000s? yes, questions will be raised. Consider the modern debates over the use of the A-Bomb, and the general consensus that interning Japanese-Americans was a crime and a black mark on US History.

The U.S. in OTL never experienced a biological attack on U.S. soil that caused this kind of disruption. And things might get worse if plague-containment efforts fail, the anthrax causes an agricultural crisis, and if the Germans (obviously inspired by the Japanese) manage to inflict mass casualties on Allied troops in Europe.

The worse it gets for America, the less future generations will question Operation Carthage.

Heck, in TTL I could imagine more people defending the Japanese Internment on the grounds it protected the Japanese from the rest of the population, given TTL's Battle of Manzanar.

Plus there's the issue of precedent. Chemical weapons being used in both world wars will normalize them.