Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 3
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Third Tiger Out
A blog about World War II era archive documents, primarily dealing with armoured warfare.
The third Tiger prototype, a Tiger P with hydromechanical transmission.
I am kinda biased as a hydromech shill, but I must admit the Germans missed something with great potential here. The Americans and the British SVDC (TOG) both concluded the same thing: (high speed) mechanical transmissions are just more trouble than they are worth in heavy tanks. They are more efficient than hydromech and electric and are somewhat lighter, but they require a lot more expensive machining, are not as kind to the engine or as easy to use for the driver and they lack some of the agility of those continuous transmissions.
In hindsight, had Germany started working on hydromech transmissions like Voith in 1939 for heavy tanks, they would have got something easier to manufacture and better. With a single powerful engine, the Voith transmission would be much simpler, smaller and lighter than in Typ 102. Probably more realistic than transmissions for Panther and Tigers.
Ditto for the British if they had listened more to the SVDC. The USSR also screwed itself over by not using hydromech in the 60s and selecting BKPs instead.
for those unfamiliar with it
this is a skottelbraai
it's all fun and games till someone installs the LOX tank....
Randy
See also what happened to Japanese ships when the oxygen tanks for the Long Lance torpedoes got hit.
Air is roughly 1/5 oxygen, so pure oxygen is 5 times more concentrated, and liquid oxygen is roughly 1000 times denser (more concentrated) than gaseous oxygen. Burning's isn't quite as easy as 5,000 times the oxgen results in 5,000 times faster burning, but you can expect something impressive.
Someone made a color pic of my FV38M-A2 medium tank which I made for the "Featherston's Finest" thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...es-of-the-csa-and-freedom-party.450965/page-9
My original pic:
The color copy:
I found the pic on Pinterest and tried to follow the link to the site it was posted from but my Norton security warned me off the site. The site was in Russian so I wouldn't have understood any of it anyways but I wonder if I was credited for the design?
The pic isn't a 100% copy of my design but it's awfully dam close and they did give it the same letter and number designation that I gave it.
I have to admit I like it.
My original pic:
The color copy:
I found the pic on Pinterest and tried to follow the link to the site it was posted from but my Norton security warned me off the site. The site was in Russian so I wouldn't have understood any of it anyways but I wonder if I was credited for the design?
The pic isn't a 100% copy of my design but it's awfully dam close and they did give it the same letter and number designation that I gave it.
I have to admit I like it.
I found another one of my designs on Pinterest from the same Russian site:
This one was based on the premise of the Russians giving the Brits a T-34 shortly after the start of Barbarossa and the British decide to put the T-34 into production.
I've said in the past I don't mind if people here use my designs for TL's or armour related threads, I only ask that they give me credit for my designs.
I don't think that's the case here.
This one was based on the premise of the Russians giving the Brits a T-34 shortly after the start of Barbarossa and the British decide to put the T-34 into production.
I've said in the past I don't mind if people here use my designs for TL's or armour related threads, I only ask that they give me credit for my designs.
I don't think that's the case here.
I found another one of my designs on Pinterest from the same Russian site:
This one was based on the premise of the Russians giving the Brits a T-34 shortly after the start of Barbarossa and the British decide to put the T-34 into production.
I've said in the past I don't mind if people here use my designs for TL's or armour related threads, I only ask that they give me credit for my designs.
I don't think that's the case here.
Wonder what nickname Brits would give them.
Well, following the example of American tanks in British service, I'd assume they'd be named after Russian generals. "Kutuzov" for example, after the Russian general who defeated Napoleon at Borodino.
Heavy Tank, M5 (90) Panther
With a need for a heavier tank, the French Army decided to rehabilitate Panther tanks they had collected. Knowing there was only so much ammunition for the Panther’s KwK 42 main gun, the M3 90mm gun used on the M26 Pershing and M36 Jackson was substituted. A M2HB machine gun was placed on top of turret for the tank commander to use and the MG 34 machine guns were replaced with M1919A4 machine guns. The radio was switch to an American SCR-528. The French decided to use American nomenclature to help secure lend lease funding. The Turncoat War was as much of a surprise to the French as it was to the rest of the Western Allies. The French had contacted the British to get as many spare parts as the could since the factories for the Panther were in the British Zone.
Greatly appreciate any help in making a diagram of this tank.
With a need for a heavier tank, the French Army decided to rehabilitate Panther tanks they had collected. Knowing there was only so much ammunition for the Panther’s KwK 42 main gun, the M3 90mm gun used on the M26 Pershing and M36 Jackson was substituted. A M2HB machine gun was placed on top of turret for the tank commander to use and the MG 34 machine guns were replaced with M1919A4 machine guns. The radio was switch to an American SCR-528. The French decided to use American nomenclature to help secure lend lease funding. The Turncoat War was as much of a surprise to the French as it was to the rest of the Western Allies. The French had contacted the British to get as many spare parts as the could since the factories for the Panther were in the British Zone.
Greatly appreciate any help in making a diagram of this tank.
What about trying this site? ... at least its not a "dangerous site" and has quite some reputaion and I wonder if its modeerators/admins would like to continue to host a copycat/robber of intelelectual property.
Btw ... maybe some others from here might find their desings here also ...
Interesting. I found one of my designs there and pic has an AlternateHistory.com link but when you click it it takes you to the Russian site.
Claymore you might want to check out this site, I wouldn't be surprised if some of your designs are there as well.
Iraq goes French:
The outbreak of the Iran-Iraq war and the failure of the initial invasion drastically increased required quantities of weapons required. Iraq sought to replace its tank losses with various sources, namely China and the USSR. In 1981-82, Iraqi officials would start making enquiries about the AMX-32 MBT, as France was already a significant weapons supplier for the country. It was decided to order some 150 of them with options for more, to be delivered from 1983 on. Iraqi crews would be trained by their French counterparts.
As delivered, the AMX-32 was of the 105mm version displayed in 1981, as GIAT decided not to offer the 120mm version that was heavier and degraded mobility with a then-unnecessary gun. Instead of the intercooled turbocharged HS-110-2SR, the less powerful HS-110-2 was used as it was better suited to hot climates. Nonetheless the AMX-32 would still possess much better mobility than the T-55s and Type 59/69s that were also used by Iraq.
With relatively well-trained crews and modern electronics, the AMX-32s would serve well in the war, being particularly valuable in night engagements.
This vehicle and the French training would have a major impact on Iraqi views of armored warfare. Although admittedly outdated in terms of mobility and protection, the AMX-32 possessed a then modern optics and FCS suite with a panoramic sight and LLTV, as well advanced tungsten APFSDS that was actually more capable than 125mm ammunition delivered to the Iraqis. The hydromechanical transmission also offered greater agility and reverse speed than the Soviet-style mechanical ones. This led Iraq to reassess their decision to blindly order Eastern vehicles. However, the war ruined the country, and it was thus decided to focus on cheaper upgrades and equipment. This spelled the doom of French efforts to sell the better armored and more mobile AMX-40E4 also offered to Egypt.
Instead, more AMX-32s were ordered. Iraq also drew plans to have the French expand the factory in Taji that was built by the West-Germans in 1986 to help maintain Eastern tanks and was selected to build T-72M1s with Polish kits. This expansion was supposed to allow the upgrade of T-55-oids with a new French package, featuring the same 105mm gun as the AMX-32, new ammunition racks, the Poyaud V8X 750hp engine combined with a ESM-200 Minerva transmission, suspension improvements, passive night sights for the gunner and commander, and finally a simplified FCS with a laser rangefinder. Iraq also requested France to design tungsten APFSDS and a new FCS for the 125mm gun used in the T-72. However, the latter upgrade never saw the light of day as it was not ready before the invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent embargo, and only 200-300 Type 69s were upgraded in time. These vehicles and the AMX-32 would actually be marked as a greater threat by NATO during the Gulf War due to their firepower, but the deficiencies of the Iraqi army meant that these would only destroy a couple dozen vehicles before being wiped out.
A few AMX-32s were left in France due to the embargo. Eventually, along with refitted captured Iraqi types, they would be sold to an unnamed African country.
The outbreak of the Iran-Iraq war and the failure of the initial invasion drastically increased required quantities of weapons required. Iraq sought to replace its tank losses with various sources, namely China and the USSR. In 1981-82, Iraqi officials would start making enquiries about the AMX-32 MBT, as France was already a significant weapons supplier for the country. It was decided to order some 150 of them with options for more, to be delivered from 1983 on. Iraqi crews would be trained by their French counterparts.
As delivered, the AMX-32 was of the 105mm version displayed in 1981, as GIAT decided not to offer the 120mm version that was heavier and degraded mobility with a then-unnecessary gun. Instead of the intercooled turbocharged HS-110-2SR, the less powerful HS-110-2 was used as it was better suited to hot climates. Nonetheless the AMX-32 would still possess much better mobility than the T-55s and Type 59/69s that were also used by Iraq.
With relatively well-trained crews and modern electronics, the AMX-32s would serve well in the war, being particularly valuable in night engagements.
This vehicle and the French training would have a major impact on Iraqi views of armored warfare. Although admittedly outdated in terms of mobility and protection, the AMX-32 possessed a then modern optics and FCS suite with a panoramic sight and LLTV, as well advanced tungsten APFSDS that was actually more capable than 125mm ammunition delivered to the Iraqis. The hydromechanical transmission also offered greater agility and reverse speed than the Soviet-style mechanical ones. This led Iraq to reassess their decision to blindly order Eastern vehicles. However, the war ruined the country, and it was thus decided to focus on cheaper upgrades and equipment. This spelled the doom of French efforts to sell the better armored and more mobile AMX-40E4 also offered to Egypt.
Instead, more AMX-32s were ordered. Iraq also drew plans to have the French expand the factory in Taji that was built by the West-Germans in 1986 to help maintain Eastern tanks and was selected to build T-72M1s with Polish kits. This expansion was supposed to allow the upgrade of T-55-oids with a new French package, featuring the same 105mm gun as the AMX-32, new ammunition racks, the Poyaud V8X 750hp engine combined with a ESM-200 Minerva transmission, suspension improvements, passive night sights for the gunner and commander, and finally a simplified FCS with a laser rangefinder. Iraq also requested France to design tungsten APFSDS and a new FCS for the 125mm gun used in the T-72. However, the latter upgrade never saw the light of day as it was not ready before the invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent embargo, and only 200-300 Type 69s were upgraded in time. These vehicles and the AMX-32 would actually be marked as a greater threat by NATO during the Gulf War due to their firepower, but the deficiencies of the Iraqi army meant that these would only destroy a couple dozen vehicles before being wiped out.
A few AMX-32s were left in France due to the embargo. Eventually, along with refitted captured Iraqi types, they would be sold to an unnamed African country.
Oh dear, Pather reliability with interlwaved wheels and French ease of maintenance - save us all!
I recall the saying that Citroens [1] were easy to maintain as long as you had an eight foot long arm with three elbows
[1] to be fair to Citroen, changing spark plugs and distributor cap on a mini used to involve removing the radiator, while early Ford Escorts used Whitworth, UNC and American Fine screws (and quite possibly additional illegal, obsolete or cursed fastenings) in what appeared to be a determined effort to deter routine maintenance.
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If you're going to change the suspension as well as the gun, turret and engine then you better off designing a new tank which I believe is exactly what the French IOTL did.
Ramontxo
Donor
What would have been really interesting is doing all of that an leaving the original transmission in place...
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