Lands of Red and Gold

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But weren't Maori (and especially Maori warriors) too militant to be useful slaves?

Hmm, not sure. I need to look into the history of Maori slavery in more detail - it was something used to a degree even in OTL.

Of course, there were many reasons for the revolution's success (weakening of French control due to the French revolution being very important one), but still - would it be reasonably safe to import whole enslaved iwis to *Queensland?

Regardless of anything else, I doubt that whole iwis would be enslaved and imported. Raids would be more typically along the lines of capturing a number of warriors (and civilians). So whatever slaves were brought to *Queensland would probably be from a mixture of iwis, and probably in smaller numbers.

On the other hand, importing only women and children would be pretty much safe bet, but women can't work as hard as men (especially during pregnancies and breastfeeding), while children need some time to grow into first-rate field hands.

Women were worked surprisingly hard in cotton plantations in OTL, and the way in which planters used child labour made an already morally abhorrent institution so much worse. I'm not so sure about the labour division for sugar plantations, but I'd still expect all slaves to be worked hard.

That is, there are two options for our prospective *Queensland planter - to get strong adult Maori male slaves (with their women and children, most probably) who can work hard and bring handsome profits to him almost immediately, but can also kill him and his family, or to get less dangerous Maori women and children only and to be content with long wait for profits. Of course, if Maori winners would kill off warriors of a defeated Maori iwi and sell their families, this dilemma would be solved without the planter's participation.

I do need to look into this in more detail, but I'd expect that slaves would consist of a mixture, both of genders and ages, but also mixtures of different iwi, or at least different hapu.

I know about blackbirding, but wasn't it limited to Melanesia in OTL because Indonesia/Dutch Indies was reasonably well-governed by the time of Queensland's sugar industry beginnings, so that going to the Dutch colonies to buy de-facto slaves would end with prison term at best and gallows at worst? Melanesia, on the other hand, was more or less independent (and defenseless) before late 19th-early 20th century, so Australians went blackbirding that way.

Blackbirding was broader than Queensland sugar planting. I'm not sure if it started in Peru or if both were practiced simultaneously, but it was conducted across a lot of the Pacific. I'm not sure whether Indonesia was avoided because of Dutch control, or whether it was just that Melanesia was closer.

Summing up all this slave trade and Maori conquests talk, the "Third World" looks set to become a strange, brutal but interesting place by late 17th - early 18th century, or so, with:

Oh my, yes.

Maori fleets raiding all over Oceania,

Check.

European (or Maori, or even Nangu) traders participating in the two-directional trade between *Queensland and Aotearoa (sugar and rum for slaves and flax),

Check. And also, probably, trade with places further south for various Aururian spices (myrtles etc) and maybe jeree/lemon tea, to sell on to places in Asia.

European planters, in their luxurious residences, trying to maximize their profits (and risking rebellions),

Quite. Although the planters may not be exclusively European.

slaves from Asia, Melanesia and Aotearoa suffering together under lash of (probably non-European) overseers and being made by their common experience into a new race, with its own pidgin language,

Could certainly happen. Although if the overseers speak a common language, that language will probably form the main basis for the pidgin language, as happened in various places in OTL.

different European countries trying to develop colonies or protectorates of their own (and destroy rival settlements), and being forced into alliances of convenience with Aururian or Aotearoan states (even when some of their partners eat human flesh or sacrifice some of their subjects).

Why, yes. Aururia (and Aotearoa) certainly looks like it will a playground of competing European states. A bit like the Caribbean was in OTL, but with native powers still surviving. Pirates, slavers, merchants, privateers, proxy wars, the whole works.

One can imagine three Maori chieftains meeting at the home of one of them, and recalling their lives - the first chieftain having made his fortune selling Polynesian slaves to Aururia, the second one being co-sponsor of his nephew's expedition to some Melanesian archipelago, and the last of them having been captured as a child by rivals who had raided his father's fortress, then sold to some slave trader, freed by his remaining kin in the Tasman Sea and returned to his iwi to grow up and bring vengeance to his father's killers. All three of them saw wider world beyond Aotearoa, speak at least one European language, and are good shots. One of them was baptized by Spanish missionaries some time ago (mostly out of hope to get better trade terms from Spain), another one accepted Pliri faith with sincere belief, while the third one remains "heathen". Confessional differences do not harm their friendship, though.

Hmm, I think I smell a future post coming up...

To counterbalance the Europeans, if the Aururians get decent naval capabilities, they could possibly ally with the Moġuls or Southeast Asia's Independent states, which could in turn weaken the European's grasp on the Indo-Pacific. Just an idea.

It's not impossible, but there would probably need to be a change in outlook from the Asian states. They don't seem to have been particularly interested in OTL. Of course, if Aururians or their offshoots are around and trading in force, then there might be some potential there.

The thing is, the Moguls were more than able to build strong navy on their own, they had money, timber and sailors for it (they lacked naval guns and gunners, but these might be bought/hired in Europe/Ottoman Empire). However, they never built it. They were just not interested, it seems.

The Moghuls, in particular, were quite a land-based power even at their height. Open to receiving trade, but not particularly interested in going out for it. Whether anything could provoke a change in outlook, I'm not sure.

Sounds like the congixie might have some company in the interesting hybrid cultures of this TL

Heh. You never know. Although the Nuttana have to come from somewhere.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
This thread got me thinking https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=204404

Are there any gladiator type games in the Australia of this TL.
Men fighting each other to the death as sport or men fighting beasts (I realize Australia doesn't have a lot of large animals, but a man armed with only a knife or small club fighting a red kangaroo,crocodile or specialy bred dog at close range would make for an interesting spectacle.
 
This thread got me thinking https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=204404

Are there any gladiator type games in the Australia of this TL.

Yes. The blood bouts of the Atjuntja have been mentioned; slow fights to the death where the objective is to kill the other as slowly as possible. These are still largely religious events, of course, although the people attending still enjoy the spectacle.

The peoples further east don't really have any equivalents closer than forms of boxing and wrestling.

Men fighting each other to the death as sport or men fighting beasts (I realize Australia doesn't have a lot of large animals, but a man armed with only a knife or small club fighting a red kangaroo,crocodile or specialy bred dog at close range would make for an interesting spectacle.

Although I haven't gone into the details, I'd expect that dog fighting is common. Breeds of dogs equivalent to pit bulls or bulldogs would be involved.

Someone fighting a kangaroo had better have an armour-plated stomach...
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Just a quick aside.

Why would the Maori still be cannibals ITTL? My understanding is the practice is thought to have occurred because the Maori lost access to land-based protein sources such as Moa, and had little to replace them in their agricultural package. ITTL, they bring back emus and ducks to Aotearoa before things got really bad. Cannibalism otherwise seems to have been rare in Polynesia (Melenesia, of course, being a different story).

Hell, before they stopped hunting Moa, there's not even evidence the Maori had many weapons. That said, I think geography of New Zealand would lead to a lot of squabbling states regardless, particularly as population densities rise.
 
Just a quick aside.

Why would the Maori still be cannibals ITTL? My understanding is the practice is thought to have occurred because the Maori lost access to land-based protein sources such as Moa, and had little to replace them in their agricultural package. ITTL, they bring back emus and ducks to Aotearoa before things got really bad. Cannibalism otherwise seems to have been rare in Polynesia (Melenesia, of course, being a different story).

Hell, before they stopped hunting Moa, there's not even evidence the Maori had many weapons. That said, I think geography of New Zealand would lead to a lot of squabbling states regardless, particularly as population densities rise.

That's not how food chains work. If they really hadn't had enough protein, period, then cannibalism wouldn't have done more than extend the habitation of the isles a month or so. Cannibalism is a reaction to emergency, or it is cultural, it's never a medium- or long-term societal survival strategy.
 
I've been lurking on these forums for quite a while now, but I really have to give you credit for this TL. Its very well written and it only seems to get better.
A couple of questions though.
With a huge variety of different cultures in Aururia, will the Aururians develop some sort of national feeling/state?(not too many spoilers please;))
Will wheat and other annual crops be used in Aururia(on a larger scale) and if so, how will it affect them?
Will they stick to their own crop package and if so, how will they mechanize/simplify the process to accomodate modern needs/standards?
How big a population can Aururia viably support at various times?(1600, 1800, 2000 etc.)

And btw. please make a Scandinavia:cool: I dont even care if its Swedish dominated...
 
That's not how food chains work. If they really hadn't had enough protein, period, then cannibalism wouldn't have done more than extend the habitation of the isles a month or so. Cannibalism is a reaction to emergency, or it is cultural, it's never a medium- or long-term societal survival strategy.

I know that cannibalism strictly for calorie intake never works. But it can work as a source of protein in areas where there are no large animals to eat, and no native crops have any protein to speak of. The in highlands of New Guinea, for example, population densities were too high for protein needs to be sustained by hunting the small animals like tree kangaroos and the like, and for whatever reason, pigs never became prevalent in the highlands. Protein deficiencies were quite common, as was cannibalism.

The same seems broadly true of the Maori. They only turned to cannibalism once they managed to kill off their major protein source - Moa - along with many of the other larger birds on the islands. IIRC, the Maori did have dogs, but somehow lost out on pigs, and sweet potato has next to no protein, and thus as their population densities rose, they had harder and harder times acquiring enough in their diet.
 

Maybe, although as that thread mentions, that looks like it may have been a breed of dog which we're better off without.

Just a quick aside.

Why would the Maori still be cannibals ITTL? My understanding is the practice is thought to have occurred because the Maori lost access to land-based protein sources such as Moa, and had little to replace them in their agricultural package. ITTL, they bring back emus and ducks to Aotearoa before things got really bad. Cannibalism otherwise seems to have been rare in Polynesia (Melenesia, of course, being a different story).

Things were a bit more complex than the Maori smoothly replacing moa and seal-hunting with emu and duck farming. Yes, they picked up emus and ducks in time, along with wattleseeds (the best all-round staple crop, protein-wise), and that provides their major protein source in 1618.

But they didn't get the whole Aururian crop and animal package in one go. The process of transmission and adoption was pretty piecemeal. The Maori were more familiar with root vegetable crops early on (they already knew kumara, yams and taro), and having handy sources of carbohydrates around adds to the energy sources rather well. So yam and murnong farming took off early and well.

This led to the first population boom among the Maori, powered by yams and murnong. Unfortunately, this led to even quicker hunting out of the remaining moa (barring those exported overseas). Yams and murnong are slightly better as a protein source than kumara (about 3% for red yams and 1.8% for murnong, compared to 1.6% for kumara), but still not enough to make for a high-protein diet.

In time, the Maori figured out wattle farming (trees being harder to cultivate properly), and managed to ship emus and ducks across the *Tasman. This didn't happen immediately, though. There was a period of time when there was a booming population and not much in the way of protein available.

This was the period when cannibalism became common. As other sources of protein became available, the cannibalism shifted into a more ritualised form, until in 1618 it's much rarer, although certainly not abandoned.

Hell, before they stopped hunting Moa, there's not even evidence the Maori had many weapons. That said, I think geography of New Zealand would lead to a lot of squabbling states regardless, particularly as population densities rise.

I'm not sure about how militaristic the first couple of generations of Maori were (although I certainly didn't depict them as overly warlike). As you say, though, regardless of how they started, the geography and rising population densities would lead to competing states pretty quickly.

And it keep being so fascinating, :D

Glad you like it.

I've been lurking on these forums for quite a while now, but I really have to give you credit for this TL. Its very well written and it only seems to get better.

Thanks!

With a huge variety of different cultures in Aururia, will the Aururians develop some sort of national feeling/state?(not too many spoilers please;))

The short version is that it depends on the nature of any colonisation.

In and of themselves, pre-European contact Aururians don't really have any sense of continent-wide unity. They see themselves, at most, as being members of the relevant state (Atjuntja, Yadji, etc).

If Aururia (or most of it) is colonised by a single European power, then a common sense of national feeling may develop. It happened in India in OTL. The subcontinent had never been politically united before the British (although the Moghuls under Aurangzeb came close), but national feeling developed in response. Even there, it didn't quite lead to complete political unity after independence, of course, and the same would probably be true of Aururia.

If Aururia is not directly colonised or is colonised by multiple European powers, the odds of a sense of common national feeling are much lower. Perhaps there could be some common sense of "Aururia for the Aururians" even with multiple colonial powers, but I'd think that the odds are lower.

Will wheat and other annual crops be used in Aururia(on a larger scale) and if so, how will it affect them?

Some annual crops will certainly be taken up by Aururians, certainly. Tomatoes are an obviously high-yielding crop with relatively low effort required. There would be several others.

The bigger question is how much outland crops supplement the diet, and how much they become staples. The thing is that wheat and most European crops are not, in fact, that well-suited for poor Aururian soils. Most Aururian soils lack phosphorus, among other things. Intensive use of fertiliser is required, which will be rather harder to obtain in pre-mechanisation times.

As others have suggested earlier in this thread, rice may be a partial exception. Growing it in irrigation along the *Murray and *Murrumbidgee may prove to be quite rewarding... in good years. Droughts or floods would kill the crop for that year, though.

I'd actually expect rice to fall into the category of luxury food... cultivated, but only in good years will the common man, or even moderately well-off man, eat rice. In poor years, only the rich man eats rice. So a "year of rice" may become an expression which means a rather good farming year.

Will they stick to their own crop package and if so, how will they mechanize/simplify the process to accomodate modern needs/standards?

For a long time, I'd expect the bulk of their calories to come from their native crops. For the labour required, it's difficult to see them changing to anything else. Animal manures will probably boost the yields a bit; they already run emus through some fields, and cattle will help even more.

Mechanising wattles will be difficult, but perhaps can be done with the right sort of machine. Mechanising yams and murnong is impossible without destroying the perennial advantage that makes them so useful. So mechanising them would be rather more difficult.

How big a population can Aururia viably support at various times?(1600, 1800, 2000 etc.)

Good question, and I don't have all of the answers yet.

What I can mention is that the population of Aururia was not stable even in 1600. The spread of iron tools and better farming techniques meant that the sustainable population was higher than it actually was, and the population was still growing, up until the point when Eurasian diseases arrived and reversed this growth.

I have, in fact, recently revised the population figures for the iron-using parts of Aururia upwards, by roughly 25%. This came after realising that I'd been too conservative in working out the sustainable population for those regions. So the Atjuntja have about 1.75 million people (not 1.5 million), Tjibarr has about 1.25 million (not 1 million), the Yadji have about 2.5 million (not 2 million), and the Mutjing population has been raised as well.

The Island's population is unchanged (the limit on their population isn't farming), as is that of *Tasmania and the eastern seaboard, since those areas don't use iron to any significant degree yet. I'll edit the population figures in the published timeline the next time I update it.

For 1800 and 2000, it's a little early to say.

And btw. please make a Scandinavia:cool: I dont even care if its Swedish dominated...

Many things are possible...

The same seems broadly true of the Maori. They only turned to cannibalism once they managed to kill off their major protein source - Moa - along with many of the other larger birds on the islands.

Seals, too, who once ranged much further north.

IIRC, the Maori did have dogs, but somehow lost out on pigs, and sweet potato has next to no protein,

They were missing chickens, too. Presumably just the consequences of a long sea voyage. A lot of peripheral Polynesian islands were missing one of more of the three main domesticated animals (dogs, pigs, chickens). Since kumara, yams and taro are all low protein (taro is even worse than kumara), yes, lack of protein is going to be a big problem.

and thus as their population densities rose, they had harder and harder times acquiring enough in their diet.

Quite. They will be missing it for a while in this TL, too, although they've solved that problem long before 1600.

On a broader note, I am (slowly) working on the next post. It will feature the Islanders (again), and starts to show what at least some of them are turning into in the post-European contact world. Including how they get firearms from what might be thought of as a very unusual source.
 
Seals, too, who once ranged much further north.

One wonders if there might be some successful recolonization of the islands once the nutritional orientation of the Maori shifts. At a certain point there will be little impetus for seal hunting due to abundant protein sources.

They were missing chickens, too. Presumably just the consequences of a long sea voyage. A lot of peripheral Polynesian islands were missing one of more of the three main domesticated animals (dogs, pigs, chickens). Since kumara, yams and taro are all low protein (taro is even worse than kumara), yes, lack of protein is going to be a big problem.

You mentioned that these Maori have, unlike those of OTL, kept limited contact with their relatives in the South Pacific. I assume by now they've added pigs or at least chickens to the Third World domestic package?
 
One wonders if there might be some successful recolonization of the islands once the nutritional orientation of the Maori shifts. At a certain point there will be little impetus for seal hunting due to abundant protein sources.

I'm not sure about that. Hunting and/or fishing for protein is likely to continue, simply because people like the taste of meat so much. And hunting seals is easier than raising and feeding your own meat.

In OTL, seals haven't done that much recolonisation in New Zealand yet, and they're protected (more or less). In an ATL, I wouldn't be surprised if human presence keeps seals away.

You mentioned that these Maori have, unlike those of OTL, kept limited contact with their relatives in the South Pacific. I assume by now they've added pigs or at least chickens to the Third World domestic package?

On reflection, they would at least have chickens. Pigs are harder to bring across - it is a bit of a voyage, after all. The voyage from New Zealand from the likely origin of the Maori (Cook Islands or Tahiti) is about 3,300 km - that's a lot more than the distance to Australia (about 2000 km). So pigs may well not make the trip.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
On reflection, they would at least have chickens. Pigs are harder to bring across - it is a bit of a voyage, after all. The voyage from New Zealand from the likely origin of the Maori (Cook Islands or Tahiti) is about 3,300 km - that's a lot more than the distance to Australia (about 2000 km). So pigs may well not make the trip.
So chickens,dogs,ducks,emus, and quolls represent the entirety of the Maori livestock package until European contact in this TL, correct?
 
Didn't the ancestors of the Maori travel to NZ on rafts? How on earth would you transport livestock across 3K miles of tempestuous ocean on a raft?
 
Didn't the ancestors of the Maori travel to NZ on rafts? How on earth would you transport livestock across 3K miles of tempestuous ocean on a raft?

Not rafts. Canoes. Compared to a modern container freighter--well, all right, compared to the Nina or Pinta let alone the Santa Maria:p--they'd look like "rafts." But I suppose (and Jared's narrative seems to have confirmed) that they had the art of the outrigger canoe, and the catamaran, pretty well advanced. OTL the Maori (I gather mostly from here) lost the art of seafaring some generations after settling in NZ due to there being few places within easy range they judged worth sailing to. So OTL their ancestors knew more; ITTL they kept it up and I guess refined it somewhat--but that's neither here nor there for your question.

You might be thinking of Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki, which has been described at least poetically as a "raft" and was meant to replicate/demonstrate his theory that the Polynesians originated from South America. All the evidence nowadays points the other way--I guess it's pretty well proven some Polynesians did reach South America from the west, and they are clearly descended from people who spread out into Micronesia--they'd have had a chance to refine their seacraft gradually, starting from Southeast Asia, working their way along many close islands, before some of them ventured out into the open Pacific. Maybe the very earliest seafarers in their tradition were people living on what was once the continuous landmass that is now Indonesia, which was during the glaciations a peninsula--some presumably got stranded on shrinking islands when the ice melted and had to learn to navigate just to visit places they used to walk to--not to mention escaping the lower islands that got drowned completely! It really makes a lot more sense that way.

But yes, they were remarkably small vessels.

Not "rafts" though!:eek:
 
On reflection, they would at least have chickens. Pigs are harder to bring across - it is a bit of a voyage, after all. The voyage from New Zealand from the likely origin of the Maori (Cook Islands or Tahiti) is about 3,300 km - that's a lot more than the distance to Australia (about 2000 km). So pigs may well not make the trip.

But perhaps some enterprising Maori might decide that it would be a good idea to use Australia as an intermediate stop? Or might decide that hey, maybe the Aururians would pay something for these pigs?

Perhaps I'm just underestimating the ease of keeping pigs alive for a 2000 km voyage?
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
But perhaps some enterprising Maori might decide that it would be a good idea to use Australia as an intermediate stop? Or might decide that hey, maybe the Aururians would pay something for these pigs?

Perhaps I'm just underestimating the ease of keeping pigs alive for a 2000 km voyage?
The Aururians will be getting them from the Europeans soon enough
 
So chickens,dogs,ducks,emus, and quolls represent the entirety of the Maori livestock package until European contact in this TL, correct?

They've also imported the domesticated Cape Barren Goose from the Cider Isle.

Rather heavier on birds than mammals, too.

Didn't the ancestors of the Maori travel to NZ on rafts? How on earth would you transport livestock across 3K miles of tempestuous ocean on a raft?

Ocean-going double-hulled outrigger canoes, not rafts. The same ones which the Polynesians used to transport livestock across much of the Pacific. There wasn't always a lot of room - as I mentioned, a lot of the outlying islands were missing one or more of the Polynesian trio of dogs, pigs, and chickens - but the Maori brought dogs to New Zealand in OTL.

Plus, of course, the Polynesians (of whom the Maori were just the southernmost venturers) were among the best navigators in the world - they sailed around a third of the globe, even setting aside the possible contact with South America.

OTL the Maori (I gather mostly from here) lost the art of seafaring some generations after settling in NZ due to there being few places within easy range they judged worth sailing to.

They did lose most of the art of seafaring eventually, yes, although they kept it for a couple of centuries. The Chatham Islands were settled from New Zealand around 1500, more than two centuries after the Maori arrived in NZ. Norfolk Island and the Kermadecs were also most likely settled by the Maori, although those settlements were later abandoned.

So OTL their ancestors knew more; ITTL they kept it up and I guess refined it somewhat--but that's neither here nor there for your question.

Yes, the Maori shipbuilding has improved somewhat ITTL, thanks largely to bronze tools acquired from Aururia.

But perhaps some enterprising Maori might decide that it would be a good idea to use Australia as an intermediate stop?

Australia is even further from the Cook Islands than NZ, so it wouldn't really help that much as an intermediate stop.

Or might decide that hey, maybe the Aururians would pay something for these pigs?

The Aururians might pay something, but probably not enough to be worth the trouble.

Perhaps I'm just underestimating the ease of keeping pigs alive for a 2000 km voyage?

It could be done - pigs were transported further distances in parts of Polynesia, I believe - but I doubt it would be easy.

The Aururians will be getting them from the Europeans soon enough

Quite, if they haven't already.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Rather heavier on birds than mammals, too.
With that many domesticated fowl and birds being so prominent in NZ I would think eggs and feathers might taken on a very important symbolic role in the culture and religion of the Maori
 
With that many domesticated fowl and birds being so prominent in NZ I would think eggs and feathers might taken on a very important symbolic role in the culture and religion of the Maori

Which, were that the case, would place the surviving moa in a rather significant position, culturally....
 
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