Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond
- Thread starter EnglishCanuck
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The period term is "dough face" as I understand it, but absolutely there will be those who ascribe him to be some kind of treacherous rodent...
In some circles "Benjamin Butler" will be synonymous with "Benedict Arnold" for quite a while...
And I think you mentioned there will be some presidents who will be viewed as worse than McClellan. If I didn't misremember, that's going to be a rough few years for the United States.
Been a lurker for awhile but I'll mention with how bad of a president McLellan is how much worse of a president his successor is and trend of democratic presidents being trashfires with Buchanan, McLellan, and likely a democratic successor could this be the breaking point of the democratic party breaking apart allowing the Republicans or the populist retaking control of the White house and steering the nation away from this mess. Just speculation not anything really
Given all that is happening in the US and will happen in the future of this story, I'm surprised that the US hasn't collapsed into different nations because of a series of bad Presidents. I know the US becomes an economic powerhouse by the turn of the 20th century but the author did not state for how long. I still think that it would collapse after the Great War, else Churchill would not have titled his AH story 'If there was a United States', suggesting that it ceased to exist until reunification in the 1960s based on a previous post. I mean, that is the only way Canada can be truly safe with dismemberment of the US, not just a military defeat.
Holy smokes!
This is shaping up to be one hell of a rising, and not in a good way!
Whatever happens, even if only half of the Fenian plan is carried out, the consequences are going to be enormous. I just hope it won't be an absolute bloobath...
This is shaping up to be one hell of a rising, and not in a good way!
Whatever happens, even if only half of the Fenian plan is carried out, the consequences are going to be enormous. I just hope it won't be an absolute bloobath...
Yeah, between 1864 and 1874 are going to be a rough decade for the United States.
Then we come to the Rise of the New Men.
It's not bad speculation! Though the Republicans are currently divided and largely disunited over issues like foreign policy, monetary policy and the end of the war, the Democrats are not using their unity to do much better. How this shapes the political parties we know and love from OTL will be interesting to say the least! The building blocks of a successful Democratic Party are there, but can McClellan and his successors really implement them?
I wouldn't put too much stock in the alternate history stories as an inspiration for the future. They relay only some of what the world at their time of writing looked like.
Only the broadest strokes can be taken away from there, and I did design those stories intentionally that way where I wasn't basing them off real world novels or authors and their styles.
On the one hand, it's the most ambitious plan the Fenians ever carried out. One only possible because of the bad blood existing in the US and the willingness of the different factions of Fenians to leverage that into overlapping support for their cause. That means that they have the potential to get a lot done, much of it terrible, and much of it short sighted. The fact that the two sides are still a bit combative and not completely mutually cooperative in their plans, they can certainly leverage it into a broader international incident!
As for how bad the aftermath may be, well, I've been listening to a lot of the Revolutions podcast by Mike Duncan, recently so take that as you will!
With McClellan track record and your hints at his successor I'm gonna say no and with all the bumbling his administration Is doing right now and all the stuff that happened with the Indians and with butler and the fenians I don't think little Mac is gonna be the remembered as a Rutherford Hayes type figure more a Andrew Johnson or his previous democratic presidential counterpart Buchanan as being one of the bumbling/worst next to his successor. Oh well that's just speculation but what's going on with US grant cause I want him to save the Union from the stupidity of little Mac and his successor. But one can dream or speculate.
Also if the Era of hard feelings is predominantly leaded by democrats I think the people of the union will probably get very disillusioned with the democrats as a party if it's that harsh will either gravitate back to the Republicans who see it as a chance to take back the reins of the nation from democrats and trumpet it as a new and better way than what the democrats did in Era of hard feelings. Or they create there group probably the populist to try a new thing bring the old down change it to something new and better.
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I've been wondering who is the US President after McClellan but is George Pendleton going to be the next President? I mean, with the coming Emergency of 1867 and how it would tie back to the McClellan Administration, his chances are probably quite low but he might still command influence among the Copperheads and some Democrats to edge out a win in 1868. There is also Horatio Seymour but he also runs into the same problem of being tied to McClellan. As for the Republicans, I can't think of anyone from that side who could be President and is worse than McClellan.
Also, I wonder if the 'Cursed Amendment' is the opposite of the OTL 13th Amendment and legalises slavery in the US. That would definitely be considered cursed for years to come.
And one more thing, I know this is a bit late but if States Rights Gist does not become CS President, I guess he could always become the CS Army Chief of Staff, General States Rights Gist and people not in the know would ask, "Do you refer to states rights in general or the general named states rights?" That would be pretty funny.
Also, I wonder if the 'Cursed Amendment' is the opposite of the OTL 13th Amendment and legalises slavery in the US. That would definitely be considered cursed for years to come.
And one more thing, I know this is a bit late but if States Rights Gist does not become CS President, I guess he could always become the CS Army Chief of Staff, General States Rights Gist and people not in the know would ask, "Do you refer to states rights in general or the general named states rights?" That would be pretty funny.
That's not a bad comparison with Buchanan actually. In terms of passively allowing problems to take shape without directing federal power against them. He's very passive in most issues and doesn't see himself beyond a protector of the law or the will of the people. It is very important for him to believe that authority is being "thrust upon him" and so he can interpret his actions and place as either "the will of the people" or the "will of providence" so as to avoid taking direct responsibility when things go wrong.
Even when he views things as being his idea, it is often someone else's fault if things don't go his way.
Oh man do I have some excitement for you coming up, both with one off comment from a certain gentleman in 1867 and then how things play out in 1868!
With both men being tied to the McClellan administration - but Pendleton the worse Copperhead - it's not impossible. Seymour has a better chance because he's seen as a moderate, and even now is sort of a 'voice of reason' in the McClellan admin. Or at least many see him so. Copperheads won't be popular by 1864.
Definitely not that dark. Too many people died fighting against slavery for that to be something ever seriously entertained. Different sort of cursed.
Oh that would be pretty good! He's influential enough in South Carolina that he could propel his way to the top of the heap. His father lived to be in his 80s, so not getting capped by Union troops in 1864 probably means he could live a damn long time to be in the Confederate hierarchy... now I absolutely need to keep him around!
Okay. Good that no one in the US is dumb enough to entertain that idea. I guess the 13th Amendment legalizes the secession of states if they vote for it and the rest of the US states agree to it like what happened in that conference McClellan thought up as his 'genius' move. That would decentralize US authority in Washington.
Well I hope the voters of McClellan gets some buyers remorse but not soon enough so that his successor can nail down the coffin of the democrats/copperheads and pave way for something better with republicans and populists taking the stage a new. And yes while I'm a bit vitriolic to them and I have no shame In hating McLellan and his cronies I hope his legacy is of making people think that Lincoln was the better option than his bumbling administration which lead to America's worst Era and his successors cursed amendment and that by the end of it the Republicans will finally unite to end the democrats/copperheads bumbling and bring forth the era reformation. And I said wishful thinking and speculation but hey man can dream.
Also the freedmen will probably never vote for the democrats ever again with there actions against them and turning a blind eye to the atrocities that the rebs have done to there still chained brothers and sisters which leaves a substantial voting block In the Republicans if only they can unite again but that's what the cursed amendment is for to reunite the disparate groups in combating the fire in the rear and extinguish it and renew the nation to a brighter path like a Phoenix.
Hey I'm a hopeful sort and I like America even though I'm not American and I think an America that has been humbled but still forges onward and betters itself and learns from its mistakes to become greater than it once was and can do better and be less arrogant about it. Sure they fall on there face multiple times trip themselves innumerable times but in the end they still try to do good. Is I think is the best representation of the American spirit.
Also with the south out the way and the democrats becoming demonized soon with there current and future actions I think there could be more good changes with all bad rust an fat being trimmed off leaving the better and good to remain to enact more radical and better changes.
Thanks goodness voters aren't quite that silly.
But the idea of "state sovereignty" has lived a maddeningly long life. In the 1870s it had a resurgence amongst people who should have known better, like Governor Joel Parker, who had fought the Confederacy. So the idea of states being more important, especially in a world where the Confederacy broke away, isn't extremely far fetched. The states might just feel they have more leverage over the federal government.
There's no "Southern Switch" in TTL I can assure you, so the Democratic Party will never have a voting base either with unionists, freedmen, or with many veterans from the 1861-62 soldiery as opposed to those drafted post 1863.
There is real hard feelings between the two split Republican groups. I'm more going to handle this in 1868, once the election becomes a big deal. However, the Radicals feel that Lincoln, and by extension Republicans in general, betrayed the spirit of the party by not enshrining anti-slavery into the 1864 election. The regular Republicans feel that the Radicals were "pushing too hard and too fast" which is what cost the Union Kentucky and split the party over a matter that could have been dealt with in victory. So it will take a big bridge to span that gap. However, Lincoln is still a canny man, and still alive...
I think that a United States which goes through a solid loss, a period of soul searching, something else terrible, and another something terrible, stands a decent chance of getting out a brighter place on the other side. TBH knocking Manifest Destiny down a peg in the American pysche could do wonders for introspection and trying to come out better on the other side. Especially with portions of the populace who really stoked racial tensions trimmed off who helped stoke some of the worst ideas in American history!
The whole "City on a Hill" aspect of the American ideal will have a real chance to shine.
Having unamibguously lost a war will probably help as well, instead of the OTL stream of "we really won it (despite failing all our aims and the opposition achieving most of their)" or "we didn't really lose, we just stopped fighting and then someone else (that we were explicitly fighting in support of) lost".
Yes, unambiguously losing to Britain militarily and then a massive series of battlefield to political defeat will have a bit of a humbling aspect on that particular strain of American thought in WiF. People will look back and be upset with their political and military leaders of the time, as well as having a political class that is less bellicose about war. For the immediate future at least. The New Men will have a more revanchist strain to them.
But of course, an unambiguous defeat means that they aren't super exciting at the thought of picking another fight with Britain too...