WI: William Adelin & the "White Ship" survived?

[The Uchronian]

Hi, folks. I normally don't ever tread too much, if at all, into Medieval type scenarios, but this one's piqued a bit of interest for a while(and I may even make a short story and/or Oneshot Scenario out of it) What if, somehow, William Adelin and company actually survive the trip back home? How might history proceed from there(apart from preventing the Anarchy.)?

Interested to hear your thoughts.....

 

[Just a Rube]

It also means no Angevin inheritance (as that came from Empress Mathilda's second husband), which leaves English holdings in France confined to Normandy (although they may make a play for Flanders if that succession crisis still happens).

 

[Sevarics]

It also means no Angevin inheritance (as that came from Empress Mathilda's second husband), which leaves English holdings in France confined to Normandy (although they may make a play for Flanders if that succession crisis still happens).

If the Plantagenets still gain Aquitaine, they will be a major force within France regardless though

 

[Just a Rube]

If the Plantagenets still gain Aquitaine, they will be a major force within France regardless though

Eleanor of Aquitaine isn't even borne yet by the time of the POD, much less divorced and remarried to Henry. For that matter, Empress Mathilda is still married to the Holy Roman Emperor; she may have kids by him, or she may remarry to someone other than Geoffrey Plantagenet (a marriage that was originally designed in part to give her a powerful husband to support her claim once she ended up as her dad's sole heir). It seems unlikely the English will end up gaining Aquitaine (and they won't be "Plantagenets," by the POD, which by definition avoids Mathilda and her Plantagenet descendants inheriting).

William Adelin was married to Matilda of Anjou (the sister of Geoffrey Plantagenet), and was slotted to inherit some French lands with that marriage, but nothing on the order of what the Plantagenets brought with them OTL.

Now, Normandy itself will likely continue to cause friction with the French (it already had, OTL, even before the Plantagenets inherited the English throne and brought all their additional French holdings with them). That will go double if the English do decide to meddle in Flanders (OTL Henry was too preoccupied with succession planning to do more than do some diplomatic maneuvering to undercut his estranged nephew to deny him a base for a possible invasion). But critically, without the Angevin inheritance, the English will likely be focused on the north of France (Normandy and environs), rather than OTL, where Gascony was really the heart of English France.

 

[htgriffin]

But critically, without the Angevin inheritance, the English will likely be focused on the north of France (Normandy and environs), rather than OTL, where Gascony was really the heart of English France

This may in fact undercut the forces that centralized France. Without one over-mighty vassal such as OTL's House of Anjou the House of Capet may be forced to make more and more concessions to the various counties and duchies instead of moving against one without worry about getting blindsided by another independent force.

Meanwhile, England's ruling class gets a lot less 'French' a lot sooner.

 

[ByzantineLover]

Well, we don't really know much about William Adelin. In 1120, William Adelin was 17 while Matilda of Anjou was about 9 or 10. William might not be willing to wait to consummate the marriage, the Normans and Angevins were traditionally enemies (IIRC, not many of the Norman lords/barons were happy with Matilda's marriage to Geoffrey of Anjou), and his half-sister is married to the Duke of Brittany. Of course, if both William and Henry I survive, he may not have a choice, but if somehow Henry ends up dying instead of William, William could decide to divorce Matilda of Anjou and marry someone older, like his father's intended second wife, Adeliza of Louvain. He might be encouraged by the fact that Fulk of Anjou is on crusade in 1120, and thus unable to immediately respond.

Just saying. It might not be the smartest move, but, in my opinion, it would be interesting.

 

[Just a Rube]

He did come from a fairly strong-willed family, it's true. That said, I'm not sure why he'd set aside his wife when she brings along a useful dowry (which Fulk OTL insisted on getting back after William's OTL death); it's not like it stops him from having plenty of fun with other ladies of the court (his dad certainly didn't seem overly concerned with marital vows). AIUI, the objections to Matilda's marriage were less about a marriage in principle, than about being ruled by an Angevin (since "obviously" a woman would be governed by her husband); a marriage to Geoffrey's younger sister doesn't have that issue, and does bring some peace and stability to that border.

It could happen, but it would bring a lot of headaches with it. Especially since William Clito (really, the Normans needed to branch out more with their names) is still running around (and OTL made overtures to Fulk of Anjou during the conflict over William Adelin's dowry; a broken betrothal would make that alliance even more logical), and the barons generally being untrustworthy even without the Anarchy to give them an excuse to extort the Crown for lands and titles in exchange for temporary allegiances. That's without even mentioning any plans William Adelin might have in his own right for meddling in France (either in Flanders with its upcoming succession crisis or elsewhere). If he has any sense, he'll stick with the marriage, especially since Henry I (who I'd expect to live at least as long as OTL without the loss of so many of his children in the White Ship and the resultant succession crisis) would live long enough to see the marriage consummated before he died (when Matilda OTL would be in her 20s). We know Henry was very keen on an Angevin marriage to acquire those dower lands and to secure that frontier (both with William Adelin, and then after his death with the Empress Matilda as soon as she became available), so I'd expect him to put his foot down if William Adelin tries to end that marriage.

Ironically, I expect William Adelin will likely be on good terms with his Blois cousins; they were on good terms with Henry I, OTL, despite the looming succession issue.

If Empress Matilda still becomes a widow, she may be packed off to a convent instead of remarrying, if she isn't expected to inherit the throne.

 

[kasumigenx]

He did come from a fairly strong-willed family, it's true. That said, I'm not sure why he'd set aside his wife when she brings along a useful dowry (which Fulk OTL insisted on getting back after William's OTL death); it's not like it stops him from having plenty of fun with other ladies of the court (his dad certainly didn't seem overly concerned with marital vows). AIUI, the objections to Matilda's marriage were less about a marriage in principle, than about being ruled by an Angevin (since "obviously" a woman would be governed by her husband); a marriage to Geoffrey's younger sister doesn't have that issue, and does bring some peace and stability to that border.

It could happen, but it would bring a lot of headaches with it. Especially since William Clito (really, the Normans needed to branch out more with their names) is still running around (and OTL made overtures to Fulk of Anjou during the conflict over William Adelin's dowry; a broken betrothal would make that alliance even more logical), and the barons generally being untrustworthy even without the Anarchy to give them an excuse to extort the Crown for lands and titles in exchange for temporary allegiances. That's without even mentioning any plans William Adelin might have in his own right for meddling in France (either in Flanders with its upcoming succession crisis or elsewhere). If he has any sense, he'll stick with the marriage, especially since Henry I (who I'd expect to live at least as long as OTL without the loss of so many of his children in the White Ship and the resultant succession crisis) would live long enough to see the marriage consummated before he died (when Matilda OTL would be in her 20s). We know Henry was very keen on an Angevin marriage to acquire those dower lands and to secure that frontier (both with William Adelin, and then after his death with the Empress Matilda as soon as she became available), so I'd expect him to put his foot down if William Adelin tries to end that marriage.

Ironically, I expect William Adelin will likely be on good terms with his Blois cousins; they were on good terms with Henry I, OTL, despite the looming succession issue.

If Empress Matilda still becomes a widow, she may be packed off to a convent instead of remarrying, if she isn't expected to inherit the throne.

Or Matilda gets married to the relative of the King of France, Philip of Mantes comes in mind or becomes Duchess of Brittany..

 

[jmberry]

I need to get back to work on my timeline on this