WI Vichy French Sink (Or Damage) HMS HOOD?

[MerryPrankster]

I'm reading about Mers-e-Kebir in ENGLAND'S LAST WAR AGAINST FRANCE and apparently a small French ship managed to get two torpedoes off against the HMS HOOD, which barely avoided them.

What if they'd struck true? I don't know about the HOOD's protections against torpedoes, so what if:

1. The HOOD got sunk?

2. The HOOD survived, but was damaged and needed to be recalled for repair?

Vichy managing such an unlikely naval victory might have political effects, plus #2 likely butterflies the sinking of the HOOD later by the BISMARCK. No BISMARCK legend, or a different one?

 

[BlueTrousers]

The second scenario will certainly bring butterflies to the Bismarck encounter. With the size and armour, two torpedoes won't be really sufficient to sink or cripple Hood [except the occasional explosion resulting from the hits], but the damage means it's going to see a long time in repair yards to repair torpedo damage and refit its obsolete parts, making her more modern and capable of fighting. Bismarck's sortie without Hood would be interesting, but debatable and is something like a cliche anyway.

With bad enough damage that commits her to the yards for long enough, the opportunity may well be taken to carry out the planned Large Repair.

 

[King Augeas]

I can't see Hood being taken out of service for three years for the Large Repair. She's too valuable while the naval war is in the balance, and then afterwards it's probably not worth doing.

If she takes a torpedo off Algeria, then she'll be sent to a US yard for repairs, and they'll do a moderate refit at the same time, but the focus will be on getting back in service soon to face the threat from the German heavies.

Let's say nine months of work that includes just enough additional armour to stop the killing hit from Bismarck. Bismarck is crippled by gunfire and then sunk by torpedoes at Denmark Strait; Hood is seriously damaged and goes back in for another 6 month repair before being sent east with POW and Repulse, getting torpedoed by the IJN and spending another 9 months in the yard getting repaired and refitted. She comes back out in late 1942, does Torch and then spends her time acting as cover for Arctic convoys. With a bit of luck you can have her along side DoY at North Cape.

 

[Fearless Leader]

I can't see Hood being taken out of service for three years for the Large Repair. She's too valuable while the naval war is in the balance, and then afterwards it's probably not worth doing.

If she takes a torpedo off Algeria, then she'll be sent to a US yard for repairs, and they'll do a moderate refit at the same time, but the focus will be on getting back in service soon to face the threat from the German heavies.

Let's say nine months of work that includes just enough additional armour to stop the killing hit from Bismarck. Bismarck is crippled by gunfire and then sunk by torpedoes at Denmark Strait; Hood is seriously damaged and goes back in for another 6 month repair before being sent east with POW and Repulse, getting torpedoed by the IJN and spending another 9 months in the yard getting repaired and refitted. She comes back out in late 1942, does Torch and then spends her time acting as cover for Arctic convoys. With a bit of luck you can have her along side DoY at North Cape.

How is the RN organized then for the Battle of the Denmark Strait? Would the Repulse join the Prince of Wales in TTL or would another ship replace the Hood? How would the Repulse fare?

Another thought: As the RN's most modern Battlecruisers IMO the rebuilt Hood is a prime candidate to be part of Force Z and sent to Singapore. I hope that AA upgrade was good

 

[Count of Crisco]

I don`t know the quality of her AA upgrades if the refit went ahead as planned .But if she was damaged by the Vichy French and subsequently in drydock during the whole Repulse PoW fiasco .Maybe the RN decides to totally remodel her AA outfit ?Then she is sent to replace those lost ships in the pacific .Perhaps the RN loans the Hood to the Americans at Midway and she makes visual contact with the IJN battleships escorting the carriers ?

 

[nbcman]

I don`t know the quality of her AA upgrades if the refit went ahead as planned .But if she was damaged by the Vichy French and subsequently in drydock during the whole Repulse PoW fiasco .Maybe the RN decides to totally remodel her AA outfit ?Then she is sent to replace those lost ships in the pacific .Perhaps the RN loans the Hood to the Americans at Midway and she makes visual contact with the IJN battleships escorting the carriers ?

The Americans wouldn't accept her for Midway. Why add a 28 knot ship to 32-33 knot task forces? The USN didn't add include any of the 28 knot North Dakota BBs in either TF16 or TF17 and those US BBs were available at the time of Midway. If the USN truly wanted a BB to accompany their fleet, they could have theoretically included 32 knot USS South Dakota but she was still finishing commissioning and shakedown at that time.

 

[King Augeas]

How is the RN organized then for the Battle of the Denmark Strait? Would the Repulse join the Prince of Wales in TTL or would another ship replace the Hood? How would the Repulse fare?

Another thought: As the RN's most modern Battlecruisers IMO the rebuilt Hood is a prime candidate to be part of Force Z and sent to Singapore. I hope that AA upgrade was good

Off the top of my head... Denmark Strait would be as historical, except that the hit on Hood doesn't quite penetrate to the magazines. The combined fire of Hood and PoW inflicts serious damage and forces Bismarck to turn back, covered by a torpedo run and smoke from Prinz Eugen. PE is crippled and later sunk. Bismarck is slowed by flooding and the historical diving hit from PoW. Hood takes serious damage and can't keep up, so she heads home. Victorious and KGV alter course to intercept Bismarck. Swordfish slow her further with a couple of hits, then she's caught between PoW and KGV.

Yes, I'd expect AAA to be a priority for a refit after Rheinubung. Also radar, which makes a surprise night attack on those six IJN cruisers and their destroyers much more likely, albeit probably with a nasty bit of torpedo retaliation.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Nobody thinks the Battle of Denmark Strait itself might be butterflied?

 

[CultBoy]

Nobody thinks the Battle of Denmark Strait itself might be butterflied?

I think, the German heavies would still get sent out at some point. Some type of lone BB and BC/Cruiser combo. So a fight will take place, but depending on the butterflies it could play out in the almost the opposite order of OTL e.g. airstrike first and then slugging match.

What would be interesting is if the fleet air arm managed to sink the German force in this scenario without the gun lines help. Especially if Hood is still in for repairs at the time!

 

[Scotty]

Nobody thinks the Battle of Denmark Strait itself might be butterflied?

I can see it 2 ways with Hood out of commission

either the Germans think 'this is the big chance' and go as OTL.
The RN will probably have no choice but to have Repulse in Hoods place in that group.

However, this is;nt as bad as you might think. Any sane RN Admiral will have PoW in the lead (dockworkers on board be damned) and so no golden BB. Repulse i believe was the crack gunnery ship at the time (one of the R BC's was anyway) so you could see PoW and Bis batter each other while Repulse gobbles up PE and then helps out on Bis

or

The Germans think if Hood is out of commission for any length of time they might have the time to get Tirpitz upto speed and then do a Bis, Tirp, PE breakout - how the RN would try and cover that i have no idea..but it would give the Admiralty palpitations

 

[MerryPrankster]

Good thoughts on alt-Denmark Straits.

Also, IIRC when the Hood was sunk the British went after Bismarck hard-core. If the Hood is sunk or crippled, will the British go similarly vindictive against Vichy France?

 

[Fearless Leader]

Good thoughts on alt-Denmark Straits.

Also, IIRC when the Hood was sunk the British went after Bismarck hard-core. If the Hood is sunk or crippled, will the British go similarly vindictive against Vichy France?

I don't think so. Remember Britain isn't exactly flush with friends in July 1940. The last thing they need is to add France to their list of enemies for nothing more than damaging or sinking the Hood after the RN basically destroyed the better portion of the French fleet.

If anything, making Operation Catapult a bit less one sided might sate French desires for revenge and may lead to an earlier rapprochement between the two sides.