WI: Right wing East Germany during the Cold War?

[Neoteros]

I know, it sounds ASB, and it probably is - but in the anime/manga series Spy x Family, perhaps because the author didn't do his research properly, the series' East Germany equivalent is actually quite right wing in character, and the emblem of its secret services includes both Nazi and Soviet elements, too. Is there any way in which a regime far to the right of the rest of the Warsaw Pact (to such an extent, it's even got business magnates and private schools) could be established and survive in East Germany, while being separate from West Germany?

IMO, since quite a few Nazis recycled themselves as Stasi members, that's not an impossible task but, it's hard to do - maybe, East Germany's alternate leadership plays up nationalism and patriotism to a greater extent than it did IRL, with a side order of Kinder, Küche, Kirche in a way reminiscent of Ceaușescu's rule in Romania, but that would require a very different leadership; perhaps, some of the generals that tried to coup Hitler in OTL survive, and jump ship once the Soviet tanks roll in? Privatization would happen later, but in a state capitalist manner reminiscent of the PRC, with the state holding private businesses on a very tight leash.

What do you think?

PS: in a DDR as socially conservative as communist Romania, Anya being a neglected orphan makes a frightening amount of sense, too.

 

[Ogrelord420]

Maybe the National Bolsheviks could come to power. After all Germany was their home country and many prominent members were part of the Anti Nazi resistance.

 

[RedSword12]

The USSR wouldn't let it be right-wing economically. It could only be right-wing in the social sense, unless it survives the collapse of the USSR long enough to transition to a market economy.

 

[Neoteros]

Maybe the National Bolsheviks could come to power. After all Germany was their home country and many prominent members were part of the Anti Nazi resistance.

I thought about the Nazbols, too - however, given how hard they've been memed, I wasn't sure if they were even a thing back then, at least in the Germany of the 1940s and 1960s. But if they were an actual part of the resistance to Nazi rule, then a Nazbol DDR could happen.

The USSR wouldn't let it be right-wing economically. It could only be right-wing in the social sense, unless it survives the collapse of the USSR long enough to transition to a market economy.

Could this Nazbol DDR eventually align itself with China if the Sino-Soviet split still happens, or try to go the route of Czechoslovakia and Hungary? Given the very critical position of the DDR in Europe, that'd be the kind of behaviour that'd make the USSR send in the tanks, however.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I know, it sounds ASB, and it probably is - but in the anime/manga series Spy x Family, perhaps because the author didn't do his research properly, the series' East Germany equivalent is actually quite right wing in character, and the emblem of its secret services includes both Nazi and Soviet elements, too. Is there any way in which a regime far to the right of the rest of the Warsaw Pact (to such an extent, it's even got business magnates and private schools) could be established and survive in East Germany, while being separate from West Germany?

IMO, since quite a few Nazis recycled themselves as Stasi members, that's not an impossible task but, it's hard to do - maybe, East Germany's alternate leadership plays up nationalism and patriotism to a greater extent than it did IRL, with a side order of Kinder, Küche, Kirche in a way reminiscent of Ceaușescu's rule in Romania, but that would require a very different leadership; perhaps, some of the generals that tried to coup Hitler in OTL survive, and jump ship once the Soviet tanks roll in? Privatization would happen later, but in a state capitalist manner reminiscent of the PRC, with the state holding private businesses on a very tight leash.

What do you think?

PS: in a DDR as socially conservative as communist Romania, Anya being a neglected orphan makes a frightening amount of sense, too.

No part of the Russian empire (and let's not pretend the Warsaw pact wasn't) is going to be allowed to deviate that much. It goes against everything the USSR stood for and how it saw itself. You'll note the Soviets were deeply invested in making East Germany left wing even while they were fighting the war!

 

[Garrison]

I cannot see either the Soviets or the Western Allies tolerating such a state. I twould seem too uncomfortably like a barely disguised revival of the Nazis.

 

[AT0N]

Maybe the National Bolsheviks could come to power. After all Germany was their home country and many prominent members were part of the Anti Nazi resistance.

Yea, but even inside anti-Nazi resistance the national-bolshevicks were fringe. Playing around "Freies Deutschland" would make more sense. But a socially right-wing DDR requiers some major PoD, maybe less insane German nationalists (von Schleiher or DNVP) coming to power instead of Hitler and then being defeated by the USSR in a war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_for_a_Free_Germany

 

[oberdada]

I do have given this some thought, but: No way!

 

[KuboCaskett]

I know, it sounds ASB, and it probably is - but in the anime/manga series Spy x Family, perhaps because the author didn't do his research properly, the series' East Germany equivalent is actually quite right wing in character, and the emblem of its secret services includes both Nazi and Soviet elements, too. Is there any way in which a regime far to the right of the rest of the Warsaw Pact (to such an extent, it's even got business magnates and private schools) could be established and survive in East Germany, while being separate from West Germany?

IMO, since quite a few Nazis recycled themselves as Stasi members, that's not an impossible task but, it's hard to do - maybe, East Germany's alternate leadership plays up nationalism and patriotism to a greater extent than it did IRL, with a side order of Kinder, Küche, Kirche in a way reminiscent of Ceaușescu's rule in Romania, but that would require a very different leadership; perhaps, some of the generals that tried to coup Hitler in OTL survive, and jump ship once the Soviet tanks roll in? Privatization would happen later, but in a state capitalist manner reminiscent of the PRC, with the state holding private businesses on a very tight leash.

What do you think?

PS: in a DDR as socially conservative as communist Romania, Anya being a neglected orphan makes a frightening amount of sense, too.

Frankly, I always thought of Ostania as being merely Prussia with a Fascist regime on par with Italy's or at least close to that of Pinochet's Chile or various other Latin American dictatorships since capitalism is on full display and that there are many "bourgeoise" elements in Ostanian culture, especially the Academy Anya went to.

And also frankly, the best way to achieve an East Germany that is on the right...but economically is to obviously have a successor to Stalin that allows NEP or Kruschev-like reforms, preferably the earlier the better, between 1945 to 1953 I'd say; socially, I don't think so, at least in terms of the usual left-right diagram that's commonly brought up in political talk (especially these days).

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Ostania is just Prussia, basically.

 

[athgtq16129]

in the anime/manga series Spy x Family, perhaps because the author didn't do his research properly

Frankly, I always thought of Ostania as being merely Prussia with a Fascist regime on par with Italy's or at least close to that of Pinochet's Chile or various other Latin American dictatorships since capitalism is on full display and that there are many "bourgeoise" elements in Ostanian culture, especially the Academy Anya went to.

Ostania is just Prussia, basically.

Spy x Family is supposed to be set in an imaginary constructed world, not our universe, nor even an alternate timeline, Westalis and Ostania only have the aesthetics of Nazi Germany and East Germany respectively, but that is about it, like how Papers Please is also based on an imaginary world modeled after the Eastern Bloc and Yugoslavia, these works are not set in an alternate timeline because they are not even set in our universe to begin with.

Same of how in the now-obscure Battlefield Heroes game, the Nationals faction is an amalgamation of both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, and the Royals faction is a mix of the US and the British Empire, there was no deeper reasoning or ideological explanation about that, they exist solely for the authoritarian villain vs. heroic Anglo-Saxon gimmick.

I believe that the author of Spy x Family had that same intention - he wanted to portray Ostania as an authoritarian nation based on Germany's various incarnations (Prussia, Third Reich, DDR), and modern pop culture see both the Nazis and the USSR as the quintessential dictatorships, it's not because he was ignorant about the basics of history and literally believed that East Germany was a Far-Right state.

 

[PrinceTanglemane]

Wasn't East Germany in OTL the Third Reich but with a General Secretary and a Communist outlook, I thought they just ignored the Nazi past and blame West Germany for it.

 

[Enigmajones]

Only way I could see a right wing East Germany is in a world where the USSR and WarPac still exist but disintegrate anyhow. It would also need to stop or delay German Unification. If those occur it’s noteworthy that IIRC OTL the far right are strongest in the former GDR.

 

[Declan]

Best I got is ASB alliance between some semi fringe White Russian groups and the Mensheviks to beat the Bolsheviks.
Eventually the whites and Mensheviks do in fact beat the Bolsheviks. But to avoid a new socialist v anti-communist war, both sides agree to a sort of semi power sharing agreement. The state would adopt something similar to Titoist market socialism, in exchange for the state not interfering in the affairs of religion and allowing some degree of free speech.

Hitler still smears this alternate USSR as a communist monstrosity that needs to be put down.
Long story short, the war goes the same way and alrernate USSR carves out its own sphere of influence.

Thus Eastern Europe enjoys a more relaxed brand of socialism and religious groups are able to organize mostly freely.

 

[Nelson Mikeson]

Romania was a country almost completely surrounded by WP nations, so it was alllowed internal and some external autonomy since it was not viewed as a threat to the USSR or the stability of the Eastern Bloc. Not the same could be said of East Germany, which more than a Communist state was the former arch-enemy of the USSR, so it was tightly controlled, basically as a USSR colony, as a symbolic reminder that the USSR was the country which conquered Berlin in WWII and vanquished the Nazis, not to mention the direct border with the NATO state of West Germany constantly threatening the existence of East Germany, so the USSR was not going to allow East Germany the same liberties it allowed Romania.

That is not even taking into account the Eastern Bloc fear of the return of German irredentism, which is why we didn't have the Prussian Democratic Republic, but the German Democratic Republic. A nationalist East Germany inevitably means rejecting the Oder-Neisse Line, which is unacceptable to the USSR. Also, the Nazis joining the SED and STASI did not mean that East Germany was "Nazi" in any sense, just that the Communists adapted to the local political and security structures and the former Nazis adapted to the new Communist order.

Your best chance is having Stalin support a Prussian Democratic Republic, allowing it to keep Pomerania and Silesia and only seizing East Prussia, while leaving Poland uncompensated for the lands lost to the USSR. Maybe Stalin even allows Paulus to rule this PDR in a Nazbol way. This requires, however, some other PODs: maybe the USSR pre-emptively invades Poland first in 1939 and deems it a more direct threat to the USSR than Germany, so he allows Prussia to keep more territories.

 

[Bad@logic]

There were certain parts of the OTL East Germany that you could view as right wing or a continuation of a Prussian tradition that didn't exist in the West: they did keep uniforms and equipment that more closely aped previous German uniforms, and military traditions and decorations that drew on Prussian heritage. You can also see this quite literally on display in the final years of the GDR in things such as the 750 years of Berlin parade they held with the positive promotion of the army of Frederick the Great. So you can get at least some of the aesthetics of a right wing East Germany by simply amplifying this, and while I don't know how East Germany historiography developed, it could probably be steered in a nationalist direction reasonably easily. But on the other hand, any serious rehabilitation of appearance of Nazism is going to not fly with the USSR and furthermore fundamentally the GDR only had limited autonomy. Certainly economically any major deviation from the Soviet model would result in corrective actions by the USSR, and definitely any serious nationalist politics aiming at independence or revanchism would be a complete no-go.

 

[Yankeewolf]

"A problem for the Soviets that they identified with the early SED was its potential to develop into a nationalist party. At large party meetings, members applauded speakers who talked of nationalism much more than when they spoke of solving social problems and gender equality. Some even proposed the idea of establishing an independent German socialist state free of both Soviet and Western influence, and of soon regaining the formerly German land that the Yalta Conference, and ultimately the Potsdam Conference, had (re)allocated to Poland, the USSR, and Czechoslovakia."[1]



[1] from Wikipedia-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Unity_Party_of_Germany

There's always the East German uprising of 1953 that could cause a major crisis if the Soviets really bungle their response and act far too aggressively, fanning the flames of anti-soviet sentiment. Eisenhower would naturally support the protestors, and perhaps there would be negotiations between Americans and Soviet diplomats, resulting in a variant of the Stalin note being enacted in which Germany is united under a neutral government as both sides move troops out of Germany. This early reunification would be seen as a great accomplishment by the East Germans and it would certainly inoculate a right-wing nationalist sense of politics within the region, having fought back the Soviets and forced them to the table.

I'm mystified as how people think this could've happened or lead to any sort of rapprochement.

By the 1950s everyone knew how to best play to the audiences that matter, that being the United States and the Soviet Union. Any east german insurrection, whether lead by former Nazis or not, would "play it by ear" and emphasize their anti communist leanings and their support for an American style government or reunification with West Germany. If the East German situation grew dire, you'd see proclamations of support from America and especially from West Germany as nationalist feelings and more generally national sympathies would place public opinion squarely in the interests of East German freedom fighters.

And even in 1953 OTL where there were Nazi elements that operated within the uprising, it was tangential to the greater point of being against a brutal unrepresentative government was was stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Naturally, given the atmosphere, it makes sense why anti-Soviet sentiment would make itself known. It's not like Eisenhower declared unwavering support for the soviet union as their tanks were greased with the blood of striking worker's blood in East Germany in OTL.

The NSC decided on a dual strategy. First, the administration was to demonstrate "at the earliest possible moment" strong U.S. support for German unification based on free elections, thus responding to the momentum created by the uprising toward Four-Power talks on Germany. This coincided with the views of U.S. diplomats in Germany, who had pointed to the opportunity given by the rebellion to wrest the initiative on the unity issue from the Soviets and to exploit the undermined Soviet position in Germany for "an offensive at the highest level." By early July, Adenauer had publicly reversed his longstanding opposition to a high-level East-West conference. Meeting on July 15 in Washington, the three Western Allies called for a Four-Power foreign ministers' meeting on Germany in the coming fall.25 Secondly, the PSB D-45 strategy consisted of a variety of overt, covert, and psychological warfare measures designed "to nourish resistance to Communist oppression throughout satellite Europe, short of mass rebellion ... and without compromising its spontaneous nature, [and] to undermine satellite puppet authority."

Among the proposed measures, some of which remain classified, were the announcement on June 20, 1953, of the president's allocation of $50 million for the reconstruction of West Berlin, the swift exploitation of Soviet repression of the East German revolt before the United Nations, and the call for a Red Cross investigation of the conditions in the GDR and the consequences of Soviet repression. The proposals included efforts to increase the flow of defectors by overt and covert propaganda, the expansion of existing radio programs, and inter-Allied discussion to complete preparations on a Volunteer Freedom Corps, a kind of Cold War Foreign Legion composed of anticommunist East European emigres. NSC 158 also called for the consideration of "large-scale systematic balloon propaganda operations to the satellites."26

Other options aired within the administration at the time included encouraging Adenauer to announce the building of "a Bundestag" on the grounds of the destroyed Reichstag. After the September elections, "an all-out push" would be made for this "perpetual monument," one of the features of which was to be a "Hall of Heroes," in which Willi G6ttling, the West Berlin painter who had been shot by the Soviets during the riots, "would be the first to appear." In addition, the PSB proposed setting up a CIA-financed "National Committee to Memorialize the Martyrs of Freedom," the immediate task of which would be "to memorialize the patriotic uprisings in East Berlin and East Germany." The director of the State Department's Policy Planning Staff, Robert Bowie, even wanted to "encourage mass, passive resistance which would indicate to one and all under Soviet rule that they are not alone and which would demonstrate to the outside world the vitality of their opposition."

According to Eisenhower aide Walt Rostow, Bowie suggested that this was to be done by celebrating a "day of mourning for the martyrs of East Berlin" or a "'Go home, Ivan' Day." Within HICOG Berlin, measures such as public statements in favor of the release of all political prisoners held in the GDR, the restoration of sector-to-sector streetcar service, freeing interzonal travel, and channeling Western literature and printed information into East Germany were considered useful to exert pressure on East Germany's communist rulers "to the maximum of their capabilities." Most of these proposals, however, were never implemented.

From:

"Keeping the Pot Simmering": The United States and the East German Uprising of 1953​

 

[Lee-Sensei]

I don't think the Soviets would allow this. Unless we're talking about on social issues.

 

[Alexniko]

I know, it sounds ASB, and it probably is - but in the anime/manga series Spy x Family, perhaps because the author didn't do his research properly, the series' East Germany equivalent is actually quite right wing in character, and the emblem of its secret services includes both Nazi and Soviet elements, too. Is there any way in which a regime far to the right of the rest of the Warsaw Pact (to such an extent, it's even got business magnates and private schools) could be established and survive in East Germany, while being separate from West Germany?

IMO, since quite a few Nazis recycled themselves as Stasi members, that's not an impossible task but, it's hard to do - maybe, East Germany's alternate leadership plays up nationalism and patriotism to a greater extent than it did IRL, with a side order of Kinder, Küche, Kirche in a way reminiscent of Ceaușescu's rule in Romania, but that would require a very different leadership; perhaps, some of the generals that tried to coup Hitler in OTL survive, and jump ship once the Soviet tanks roll in? Privatization would happen later, but in a state capitalist manner reminiscent of the PRC, with the state holding private businesses on a very tight leash.

What do you think?

PS: in a DDR as socially conservative as communist Romania, Anya being a neglected orphan makes a frightening amount of sense, too.

Far-right elements were a powerfull force during the events of June 1953. And allthough their goals aligned more with that of the West German state (i.e. annexation of the GDR) than any desire for an independent fascist East Germany, you could certainly have a far-right provisional government in charge for some time.

These people were on the fringe of society though and had little popular support. De-nazification was carried out way more thoroughly in the GDR than it was in the west – that's just a fact. The idea of the "evil ex-nazi Stasi member" is more cold war propaganda than anything else. For every ex-nazi in the Stasi you'd encounger 20 ex-nazis in the West German "Verfassungsschutz" (secret police) or BND (foreign intelligence service). The first head of the BND was Reinhard Gehlen, the former head of "Fremde Heere Ost", one of the two Wehrmacht intelligence services (and the more important one at that). Overall, the West German state was very liberal in regards to former high-ranking Nazis. After all, we had Kurt Georg Kissinger, deputy head of the "Rundfunkpolitische Abteilung des Auswärtigen Amtes" (the main organisation tasked with influencing public opinion in foreign countries in a pro-Nazi direction) and liason man to Joseph Goebbels' propaganda ministry, as Bundeskanzler of the FRG. Even Helmut Schmidt had, according to contemporary testimony, been a convinced Nazi. On the other hand, Walter Ulbricht had spent the war in exile in Moscow, and Erich Honecker had been in jail between 1933 and 1945.