WI: Portugalican Church in 17th century

[chornedsnorkack]

After Portuguese Revolution, in 1640, Pope of Rome sided with Spain and refused to appoint Portuguese bishops, till 1670.
For some reason, Portugal remained Catholic.

WI, Portuguese after failure of initial negotiations break communion with Rome outright? That is, keep the popular Catholic practices like monasteries, Mass, real presence and saints but undertake to consecrate bishops for vacant sees without further reference to the See of Rome? And add things like formally canonizing saints expressly without Pope in the loop?

 

[Evil Crusader]

They understandably feared getting invaded by land by Spain with Papal assent (and the natural tumult that would further weaken them while they transition).
So, you gotta find reasons to ensure they can do so without fears of getting immediately attacked.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

They understandably feared getting invaded by land by Spain with Papal assent (and the natural tumult that would further weaken them while they transition).
So, you gotta find reasons to ensure they can do so without fears of getting immediately attacked.

They were invaded by land by Spain anyway. They were fighting it off, successfully. So why leave bishop´s posts vacant, rather than consecrate new bishops?

 

[Evil Crusader]

They were invaded by land by Spain anyway. They were fighting it off, successfully. So why leave bishop´s posts vacant, rather than consecrate new bishops?

Because that creates internal menace, all those people who may not be happy the Pope is fighting them, but wouldn't want to flip Protestant, all while burning up useful diplomatic goodwill.

 

[Ambassador Huntsman]

They understandably feared getting invaded by land by Spain with Papal assent (and the natural tumult that would further weaken them while they transition).
So, you gotta find reasons to ensure they can do so without fears of getting immediately attacked.

Not to mention their traditional English allies were busy with their own tumult. Maybe no English Civil War allows Portugal to take that step with English military assurance, though having no English Civil War is another matter in itself.

 

[holycookie]

After Portuguese Revolution, in 1640, Pope of Rome sided with Spain and refused to appoint Portuguese bishops, till 1670.
For some reason, Portugal remained Catholic.

Iberian identity is deeply Catholic. Portugal, even in dispute with the Papal States (or rather the current Pope), would never turn Protestant. Not to mention that it was only about 30 years of disputes. It's not a long period. The chance of a dispute with the Pope generating a Protestant church in Portugal is almost zero.
PS: and even England, the protestante nation. narrowly became Protestant.

 

[Jürgen]

Iberian identity is deeply Catholic. Portugal, even in dispute with the Papal States (or rather the current Pope), would never turn Protestant. Not to mention that it was only about 30 years of disputes. It's not a long period. The chance of a dispute with the Pope generating a Protestant church in Portugal is almost zero.
PS: and even England, the protestante nation. narrowly became Protestant.

They won’t necessary see it as Protestant, they will simply see the schism as political and not theological. Of course over time you will see the Portuguese royal family marry Protestants and see increased tolerance for foreign Protestants living in Portugal and for divergent theology. We can very well imagine Portugal ending up a center for Jansenism, and the Portuguese Catholic Church slowly diverged into a high church dominated by more orthodox Catholics and a low church dominated by Jansenist.

This likely also mean that Brazil is opened up for Protestant settlement.

 

[Coluber]

Iberian identity is deeply Catholic. Portugal, even in dispute with the Papal States (or rather the current Pope), would never turn Protestant.

Not so much Protestant, but herege. It wouldn't be easy, but a charismatic preacher could convince the populace that the Pope is a Spanish usurper and a heretic. If Portugal was succeessful enough to create its own church, it would be similar to the Anglican church, which is to say, a catholic church without the Pope.
That being said, there would be several difficulties with this. What preacher would agree to this charade? How would the overseas colonies deal with this, considering the Jesuit's importance?

We can very well imagine Portugal ending up a center for Jansenism

As I said, Jesuits. They are the big problem in this scenario. Especially a Jansenist one.

 

[holycookie]

they will simply see the schism as political and not theological.

In this case, Portugal will wait for the Pope to die and not accept the bishops' nominations. Or if in the Portuguese view there is a danger of heresy with the Spanish Pope, they will appoint an antipope (who will be supported by other groups like France, especially if the Pope is so crazy as to cause a schism in Iberia).

We can very well imagine Portugal ending up a center for Jansenism

I dont, It makes no sense at all, especially considering the Iberian culture, the period, and of course the situation in Portugal. Not to mention the over 60-year war between the Dutch and the Portuguese where religion was one of the most central factors.
P.S.: Protestantism without England, for example, would be a religion with a small global impact.

This likely also mean that Brazil is opened up for Protestant settlement.

This means that if the king were to do this, they would have a civil war, likely a revolt in the Brazilian colony, which fought a war where Catholic identity was central. This, in addition to a probable reunification with Spain, with the country (spain) using this civil war in Portugal as a way to unify Iberia.

is a Spanish usurper and a heretic.

You have an anti-Portuguese pope, that's what you generate in this case. With the Portuguese probably looking for support in other catholics kingdoms such as France for example (In addition to England, perhaps).

If Portugal was succeessful enough to create its own church, it would be similar to the Anglican church.

I put the chance of this happening at 50:1, the most likely is a violent civil war and the division of the Portuguese empire among the other powers as a result. Spain invades Portugal, the English (French and Dutch) will probably try to secure the rest of the Portuguese colonies for their own benefit. Who will win is difficult to say.