WI No paid lawyers?

And by this I mean a TL where the idea of getting someone to represent you in a court of law by paying them never came into practice or became a valid profession. :D (At least in Western society.)
What would such a world be like?
 
Could there be a society that develops a court where you can't use money to sway others to represent you or advocate on your behalf. A legal system where a judge/jury just decides based on the support/evidence they find?

Too implausible?
 
The Justice System becomes nearly dystopic, as the average man is unable to defend himself- the law has become so complicated nowadays that it'd be near impossible for someone to put up a legal defense without years of training.
 
aware of emptiness said:
Could there be a society that develops a court where you can't use money to sway others to represent you or advocate on your behalf. A legal system where a judge/jury just decides based on the support/evidence they find?

Too implausible?

Judge Dredd.
 
I think the development of professional lawyers is inevitable in any society with courts. Even in ancient Rome, where representation in court was not allowed, lawyers cropped up to assist with preperation of cases.
 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

From Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part II

I get a sense most people would support this, without thinking of the anarcy it would cause.

Sure the big bucks attract a lot of greedy types, but there are still some people who practice law to protect the rights of others.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
So all trial law is pro bono, maybe done for reputation by politicians?

How would any unpopular person or thing get fair treatment? OTOH popular or good looking people could get away with nearly anything at all.

Eventually, though, noone would practice law.
 
This may not be such a bad thing.

There was a time when many lawyers worked second jobs as well. It was not a rare occurrence in the U.S. in its early years to hae lawyers that also farmed.
 
Maybe the court system in general is diffrent. Instead of a jury by ones peers it is a jury by the victims, I forgot which cultures did this but I know a few did it.

So...

You commit a crime against person A. person A goes to the police and they decide a crime was commited. When caught Person A gets to stand in place of a jury, or judge. A person is nearby to make sure no punishment is too severe. If you steal, you must return it, or maybe a light beating. If you kill, then you get killed in return, or whatever the victims family thinks is good.
 
Fenwick I think what you are talking about is the French Juge d'Instruction system. Of course, this system, created to determine if there was a case to be answered, can now be as complicated as a full trial.

How can you ensure that lawyers are not paid? You would have to pass a law....

Of course if lawyers were not involved in the law-making process, the wording of laws would be simpler (say, about 10 paragraphs long.) However, lawyers would get involved, paid or not, because they like to order folk about. It is no coincidence many politicians train as lawyers.
 
Johnnyreb said:
Of course if lawyers were not involved in the law-making process, the wording of laws would be simpler (say, about 10 paragraphs long.) However, lawyers would get involved, paid or not, because they like to order folk about. It is no coincidence many politicians train as lawyers.
Surely it's governments that makes law, not lawyers? And, up to a point, laws have to be phrased in complex terms in order to be as precise as possible: a law that is in any way ambugious or unclear is a bad law, and prone to abuse. This necessitates a profession dedicated to understanding the nuances of legal phraseology in order to see that justice is done. Add to that the fact that judges tend to be appointed after many years' experience at the bar and you have I think quite a strong case for the necessity of lawyers in an adversarial legal system.
 
I don't agree with Sayrane that the language of law has to be complex. I can think of an English Act of Parliament which is less than 20 pages long, so clear an ordinary person can understand it and sets out the law relating to an important business structure. It was passed during the reign of Victoria and has never been amended, because it doesn't have to be.

All that matters is clarity of thought and language.

But lets get back to basics. Originally, judges wanted to avoid time-wasting (Yes, I know your wife and kids have left and your house has burned down, but what's that got to do with the speeding charge?) So lawyers, who knew how to do this so far as the law was concerned, garnered to themselves an exclusive right of audience before the courts. Once they had the exclusive right, they started to charge accordingly and to set qualifications for themselves.

This is the happy supposition that Courts have something to do with fairness and justice (you think?) Courts have nothing to do with fairness, only with the law, so we are told.

But suppose we look at them as something whose connection with the law might be a bit vague. Consider the American West. The Americans have this big democratic tradition, because the land was so vast. Lawyers did not have to be qualified because they would have to go back east: a few old law books would do. The law became a bit flexible: How could some wealthy people in Maryland understand conditions in Arizona? The folk in Arizona wanted lawyers who understood their plight and generally looked at the world the same way they did. This is real democracy and who can say they were wrong?

So why should someone be paid because he has an exclusive right of audience? He should only be paid if he's any good. The answer is not to stop payment but to downgrade the place of lawyers in the system. Don't ask me how. If I knew, I'd be a lawyer.
 
Even if lawyers were not part of our trial system, legal advice would still be available from professionals. Corporate lawyers would probably still exist, though torts might look a lot different.
 
Johnnyreb said:
I don't agree with Sayrane that the language of law has to be complex. I can think of an English Act of Parliament which is less than 20 pages long, so clear an ordinary person can understand it and sets out the law relating to an important business structure. It was passed during the reign of Victoria and has never been amended, because it doesn't have to be.
Fair enough - I daresay there is a degree of obfuscation (no doubt in part designed to preserve the role of the legal expert!); but remember that the role of the judiciary is not just to understand but to interpret the law. You have to know something about the history and exact terminology (especially of laws written sone time ago) if you are to adminster the law consistently.

The problem comes, I suppose, when a lawyer can force his interpretation of the law upon a judge, so that a guilty man can get off with a good lawyer or an innocent man be convicted because of a bad one (is this what you mean by 'downgrading their place in the system'?)
 
Satyrane said:
The problem comes, I suppose, when a lawyer can force his interpretation of the law upon a judge, so that a guilty man can get off with a good lawyer or an innocent man be convicted because of a bad one
Doesn't this to some extent already happen?:(
 
Okay how about people represent themseleves but are allowed legal council. Instead of a man being paid to represent you, now you pay for someone with greater understanding of the law to assist you in a trial.

A problem that keeps coming up is how does one deal with criminal cases without a lawyer? Does a Judge's role become that of the prosecution?
 
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