WI : Mr. Jay of New York

[Alexander Hamilton]

In the first Presidential election of the New Republic, George Washington of Virginia recevied all of the Electoirs' votes. However, under the system in effect until the adoption of the 12th Amendment, each Elector had two votes and the person receiving the second highest number of votes became Vice President. Since it was assumed that GW would be President, the choice for VP would be between several prominent Northerners. In this race in OTL John Adams came in first and John Jay of New York (former President of the Continental Congress, former Minister to Spain and former Secretary of Foreign Affairs under the Articles of Confederation) came in second. Jay was later appointed the first Chief Justice of the U.S., became Minister to GB and was elected Governor of New York.
But what if John Adams had let it be known that serving as VP was beneath his dignity and that he would be more interested in serving as Chief Justice? Jay would then be the first VP and several questions arise:
1. Would Jay be able to have a better relationship with Washington than the prickly Adams and thus have the VP become more a part of the Adminsitration?
2. Would Jay be considered the "nartural" successor to GW or would the earlier bad blood between Jay and the South during the Confederation over American rights to use the Mississippi River lead to an earlier election of Jefferson?
3. Would Chief Justice Adams be selected to go to London to negotiate with the British and would the resulting Adams Treaty be as unpopular as OTL's Jay Treaty?
4. Would a VP and perhaps later President Jay be able to keep his friend Alexander Hamilton more under control and thus more of a political factor? The feud between Adams and Hamilton not only damaged (killed?) both of their political careers, it contributed to the death of the Federalist Party.
5. In OTL Jay hated riding circuit as Chief Justice, resigned after a few years and refused Adams' nomination to return as Chief Justice in 1801, thus leading to the nomination of John Marshall. Does a Chief Justice Adams butterfly away Chief Justice Marshall and the great decisions of the
Marshall Court?
6. What type of Chief Justice would John Adams have been? He was well known as a lawyer and constitutional theorist but could he have made the SC into a powerful branch of the government like Marshall did or would his personality have prevented him from forging the type of consensus that Marshall was so good at?
7. What type of President would Jay have been? He was widely considered to be intelligent, honest, hard working, experienced in both foreign and domestic matters; and totally without a sense of humor. He was an early opponent of slavery and a reasonably good Governor of NY. Would he have handled the dispute with France better or worse than Adams? Would he have fallen into the Alien and Sedition Act trap that Adams fell into?

I would be very interested in the thoughts of the members of this Board as to these questions and any other comments they may have about Mr. Jay of New York.

AH

 

[Alexander Hamilton]

Help, I am trapped in the wrong forum and I can't get out! The morale of the story is: Never send an 18th Century mind to deal with 21st Century technology. Now where did I leave my quill pen?

 

[GreatScottMarty]

In the first Presidential election of the New Republic, George Washington of Virginia recevied all of the Electoirs' votes. However, under the system in effect until the adoption of the 12th Amendment, each Elector had two votes and the person receiving the second highest number of votes became Vice President. Since it was assumed that GW would be President, the choice for VP would be between several prominent Northerners. In this race in OTL John Adams came in first and John Jay of New York (former President of the Continental Congress, former Minister to Spain and former Secretary of Foreign Affairs under the Articles of Confederation) came in second. Jay was later appointed the first Chief Justice of the U.S., became Minister to GB and was elected Governor of New York.
But what if John Adams had let it be known that serving as VP was beneath his dignity and that he would be more interested in serving as Chief Justice? Jay would then be the first VP and several questions arise:

Good to see you posting again. You and I seem to be only ones not sick of discussing the most famous American Treasury Secretary of all time. I suspect history will put Paulson up there too. I am going to take this one at a time. You left a lot of meat so excuse the lengthy post.

1. Would Jay be able to have a better relationship with Washington than the prickly Adams and thus have the VP become more a part of the Adminsitration?

Almost definitely. My knowledge of Jay is rather weak but he has a bad habit of popping up at key moments in the revolution. I would think Jay would have an extremely beneficial effect on the cabinet. Sectional balance, revolutionary credentials as good as anyone else. I think Jay would serve in the VP spot quite well and be a real asset to the team.

2. Would Jay be considered the "nartural" successor to GW or would the earlier bad blood between Jay and the South during the Confederation over American rights to use the Mississippi River lead to an earlier election of Jefferson?

I don't think Jay would viewed as a successor and Jay would almost definitely run in 1796 against Jefferson. I think it is key in this instance to figure out were Burr falls because he ran a very close 2nd to Jefferson and was almost VP to Adams in 1796. Assuming that Jay runs as a Fed and Jefferson as an R were does this put Burr? Burr was not solidly republican and was just beginning to appear on the scene. Jay can argue that the new constitution allows the govt greater ability to defend it self so there for navigation on the Mississippi is key to national defense. Sure to appease the South and make the Federalists happy.

3. Would Chief Justice Adams be selected to go to London to negotiate with the British and would the resulting Adams Treaty be as unpopular as OTL's Jay Treaty?

I don't think he would send Adams. Adams was universally disliked in England and was on a list to be hung instantly should he be captured. I think Governeur Morris or the now freed up John Marshall are excellent choices. Possibly Hamilton himself his brother in law John Barker Church had excellent connections in England and was an MP (I don't know if that would happen with the ensuing butterflies). Hamilton is a good choice as his domestic agenda is wrapped up and there is a Federalist President. It would be a good excuse to get him out of the way and he was very friendly with Lafayette and had a desire to travel to Europe.

4. Would a VP and perhaps later President Jay be able to keep his friend Alexander Hamilton more under control and thus more of a political factor? The feud between Adams and Hamilton not only damaged (killed?) both of their political careers, it contributed to the death of the Federalist Party.

That would be nice and without an Adams Presidency I imagine the feud would be kept under wraps. I don't think Adams ever had any policy objections just a personal dislike of the "Bastard Brat of a Scotch Peddler." Provided there is no feud I am sure Hamilton would find a way to let his own ego get in the way. Hamilton being at the center of some sort of political firestorm is quite likely. None of the PODs mentioned do anything about Mariah Reynolds

5. In OTL Jay hated riding circuit as Chief Justice, resigned after a few years and refused Adams' nomination to return as Chief Justice in 1801, thus leading to the nomination of John Marshall. Does a Chief Justice Adams butterfly away Chief Justice Marshall and the great decisions of the Marshall Court?

Who says Adams wouldn't have made similar decisions? and that Marshall wouldn't have ended up on the court anyway? Marshall is just to dominant of a personality to not come forward.

6. What type of Chief Justice would John Adams have been? He was well known as a lawyer and constitutional theorist but could he have made the SC into a powerful branch of the government like Marshall did or would his personality have prevented him from forging the type of consensus that Marshall was so good at?

I can't answer this very well. It depends on how he handles Judicial Review and when and where is comes up. I would argue that Adams would do anything to ensure his position is absolute and while he might not have formed consensus like Marshall he would have been right and would have argued his point until he was shouted down. That might be enough.

7. What type of President would Jay have been? He was widely considered to be intelligent, honest, hard working, experienced in both foreign and domestic matters; and totally without a sense of humor. He was an early opponent of slavery and a reasonably good Governor of NY. Would he have handled the dispute with France better or worse than Adams? Would he have fallen into the Alien and Sedition Act trap that Adams fell into?

Jay probably would have been better than Adams. Not prone to Adams vanity and would have had the knowledge to govern effectively. The question here is the role of Hamilton. What does Hamilton do? Cabinet? Senator? Minister to England or France? Since he has a sense of humor I don't think he will fall into the Alien and Sedition acts. These came about partially because Adams considered denigrating opinions of the current President to be a reflection on the office and the man not just the man. So he considered anti-government rhetoric to be treason and so agreed with the Federalist sponsors. There is nothing that I know about Jay would lead me to believe Jay would reach the same conclusion. Jay was an accomplished Jurist and wrote several of the Federalist papers (he did back out of some maybe he wasn't as hardworking as we thought?)

Slavery wouldn't come up. I think Jay is probably tactful enough to realize this is a bad idea. It is possible that some more compromises are reached or that open debate is allowed but in the end I just don't see this coming up. All the founders recognized that slavery was a pox and that there was no good way to solve the problem to everyone's pleasure and so collectively passed the buck.

As for France. Adams considered everyone against him (rightfully so as his cabinet was spying on him for your namesake) so the way that he handled France was actually quite remarkable and I would hope Jay could handle it the same. He probably would because he would realize America could not fight another war at the time. Although the Americans might get drawn into another war because of the Jay administrations Anglophile feelings.

I would be very interested in the thoughts of the members of this Board as to these questions and any other comments they may have about Mr. Jay of New York.

AH

Hope that helps I would love to read your reactions. I have no idea how to move threads but I am sure the answer exists in one of the threads or wikis.

 

[Minchandre]

Let it be known that I am very interested in this thread despite having nothing to contribute. So, at least one other person cares...

 

[Nicomacheus]

A very interesting question.

The personality difference could well make for a very different concept of the Vice-Presidency. OTL Adams' penchant for pissing people off not only kept him out of Cabinet meetings but also led the Senate to limit his ability to participate in debates, turning him and the office into a figure head. My guess is that a more consensus minded figure like Jay would become a natural liaison between the Administration and Congress, particularly vis-a-vis diplomatcy. The notion that the Senate's role in foreign affairs was to approve treaties already negotiated by the President (rather than playing a more active role in advising the President on the form of those treaties) was settled because Washington, on attempting to attend sessions of the Senate to deliberate on the treaty with the Creeks, found the sessions exceedingly boring. The Senators didn't help matters by spending much of the session arguing over the procedures for greeting Washington (eg should they applaud him when he entered? Or would that be to royal?).

While Adams may end up on the Court, it may be to the detriment of that body. Marshall was pretty astutue, creating the precedent for a broad authority that he excercized only rarely. Adams is likely to attract more ire, not unlike Jay, whose tenure on the Court saw somes decisions overturned by constitutional ammendment. However, it could well be that initial energetic forrays, tempered by legal or constitutional rebukes, leave the court more likely to use a more limited power. Adams may find he likes the SC, since he gets to stick around for life.

I'm not sure, however, that Jay necessarily succeeds Washington. Despite good service as VP, he's not the kind of pre-eminent personage that even Adams was. It's possible that Jefferson may win in 1796. Certainly, you'd need to puzzle out the precise nature of domestic politics up to that point to really be able to say for certain. It might even be interesting to Jefferson win the Presidency, but Jay retain the Vice-Presidency, particularly under the runner-up system prior to the Twelfth Ammendment.

War with France would be a difficult prospect: there's very little for the US to gain out of such a conflict (since France does not control Louisiana in the 1790s), except perhaps better relations with Great Britain. Even that may be in a form that doesn't excite any better feelings or benefits.

 

[GreatScottMarty]

Let it be known that I am very interested in this thread despite having nothing to contribute. So, at least one other person cares...

Thanks

Nicho, you make some very good points about diplomacy. The evolution of the VP as a sort of domestic liason would be very interesting to see and according to some reports is being done by Biden at the moment. Especially with an intellectual heavy weight like Jay. I don't quite know what to make of Adams on the SC but I think you are probably closer to fact than I am. I know Adams was a trial lawyer of some skill but beyond that I don't remember hearing of him making legal opinions.

Edit: Jay may end up getting viewed as a kind of prop like the D-Rs tried to depict Washington's relationship with Hamilton during his second term.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]

Thank you to my fellow FERs (Friends of the Early Republic) for their comments and questions. I few responses from me, in no particular order:
1.The question of who to send to London in 1794 in OTL was an delicate one. Washington, in the interest of bipartisanship (before there were parties but after there were definite factions) offered the job to Madison who turned it down. Hamilton was considered to be much too pro
British (probably a correct assumption). Jay was considered to be an experienced diplomat and since the Chief Justiceship was, at best, a part time job he was selected. In our new timeline Jay will probably not be available, Hamilton is still too pro British and Jefferson still advises Madison not to go.
2. Adams had previously served as the first U.S. Minister to GB and had been graciously received by George III (a suprise to all concerned) before his normal ability to annoy people had taken hold and he had been frozen out by HM Government and London society in general. Perhaps with the passage of a few years and the change of government in GB, Washington thinks that Adams will make a better impressision. He knows the territory and he can spare a few months from the not terrribly pressing duties of being Chief Justice.
3. I think that in OTL Jay got the best deal that GB was prepared to offer the U.S. at that time. As both Washington and Jefferson agreed, it was not a great deal, or even a good deal, but it did postpone war between the two countries for over 20 years. I therefore believe that if John can hold his tongue and control his temper, he will return with about the same terms and the Adams Treaty will be just as unpopular as the Jay Treaty was. The big difference is that Jay retired from the Supreme Court shortly thereafter to accept the Governorship of NY (I guess the Treaty wasn't unpopular everywhere) while I think that Adams would remain on the Court because he likes the intellectual challenge and anything else would be, in his mind, a step down.
4. I am not certain that Jay could beat Jefferson in 1796. But assumming that the Federalist coalition holds, I think one of the major differences between a Jay Presidency and the Adams Presidency would be France. Jay was of Huguenot heritage and he had a strong dislike for France, the country which had thrown out his grandparents. Therefore, he might have been more willing to back Hamilton's desire for a real war against France than Adams. Adams saw Hamilton as a political rival and had no interest in supporting his quest for martial glory.
5. I think Chief Justice Adams would have constitutional law theories similar to Marshall but would not have nearly the ability to forge the type of unified SC opinions that Marshall was so good at. I therefore believe that an Adams Court would be much less influential in Ameircan life than the Marshall Court was.
6. Assuminmg that Jay is at least a one term President (although a successful war with France could change that) another major change from OTL is that Hamilton does not destroy his political career with his attack on Adams. I do not believe that even a succesful war with France could lead to a Hamilton Presidency because of Hamilton's own personality and the Reynolds affair, but he could remain a force in American politics.
7. I do not believe that Hamilton and Marshall were close either personally or politically in OTL but in this timeline a John Marshall who does not go on the SC could continue in Virginia and national politics and I could see him and Hamilton collaborating on a post Jefferson Federalist revival. Realistic or ASB?
For those interested in learning more about Mr. Jay, I recommend "John Jay" by Walter Stahr, a very readable biography of a great man who might not have been the best dinner guest unless you really wanted to hear about the shortcomings of Roman Catholicism, the evils of slavery and the latest doings of the American Bible Society.

AH

 

[GreatScottMarty]

thanks for the recommendation on the book. I will check it out after i finish my JPJ bio.

I know you are right about Hamilton being too pro-british. What about Morris or even Marshall for the post? I don't see Adams being a skilled ambassador; OTOH was the British govt in 1794 pro-america in a leave them alone for the time being sense?

Jay won the NY gov. because no one knew what the Treaty contained. HE was elected in absentia.