WI Göring dies and Heydrich lives?

Hendryk

Banned
I know as well as anyone how hackneyed these WIs about high-ranking figures of the Third Reich are. But I'm curious anyway: on the one hand, Göring lived through an assassination attempt by the French resistance in August 1941; while Heydrich died from wounds received in that ambush by the Czech resistance in May 1942. If we assume that Göring dies, the butterflies are enough to change Heydrich's own life (among other changes). So what differences does that make to Germany in political and military terms?
 

Brancaleone

As far as administrative skills are concerned, Heydrich was more than competent; he managed to boost the industrial output of the protectorate to prewar levels, gutted the czech underground movement and maintained public order with ruthless efficiency, while still maintaining his position as head of the SD(Sicherheit's Dienst) . Certainly a far better choice for Reichsfuehrer than Himmler . The death of Goering , after Sep39 ,could have averted the Battle of Britain drain and possibly Stalingrad as well . Any airmarshal other than Goehring would have clearly stated to Hitler that the idea of airsupplying a quarter of a million troops was bs
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Brancaleone said:
Any airmarshal other than Goehring would have clearly stated to Hitler that the idea of airsupplying a quarter of a million troops was bs
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And most probably would have got fired for his trouble.

I don't think the effects on the war will be major (though I could be wrong) but Heydrich would be an interesting figure in the aftermath. Turtledove's use of him as a Nazi resistance leader in his political polemic is a bit far-fetched, but perhaps Heydrich could be the most famous exiled Nazi, with the Israelis forever hunting him like Eichmann in OTL and a little bit of Skorzeny's aura of attractive nastiness.
 

Nik

Heydrich...

Uh, after Heydrich was assassinated, IIRC, his successor was slightly chary of liquidating locals so enthusiastically. Had Heydrich lived, the exterminations would have been far, far worse.

And, yes, had he slipped away post-war, he would have been very high on the Most Wanted list. U-boat to Argentina, perhaps, to be blown away by Mossad hit-squad around 1955...

IMHO, Goering was an Allied *asset*. There was so much he could have done to make RAF and UK suffer much worse. A competent successor doesn't bear thinking about...
 

Readman

Well, firstly unlike Goering, Heydrich wasn't an (alleged) heroin addict, secondly, he wasn't a complete moron, also from all accounts Heydrich was far more cunning and capable then Goering, so needless to say it would improve Germany's chances. would it win the war? I personally doubt it.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Hendryk said:
Which brings us to the question, who would have stepped in Göring's shoes?
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Milch IMHO

Obviously the final decision is Hitler's but I think he will shy away from fully ceremonial types

Milch would be a solid successor

The real fascinating question is what more can Heydrich accomplish? His carrot policy towards the Czechs was working, which is why British intelligence got worried and gave the green light to the assassination

He would have had a HELL of a lot more power than Kaltenbrunner, and would probably have been picked for greater things

Schellenberg's rise might have been stymied since to Himmler's eyes he was soemthing of a Heydrich-replacement

Nazi top level meetings would be easier since Goering v Goebbels does not exist and its POSSIBLE that a Goebbels-Speer axis could have got more sane policies implemented in Russia

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Brancaleone

There is even conjencture, that a surviving Heydrich by '44 would have supported the Walkyrie plot . SS yes, war criminal too, but not necessarily a blindly fanatic one . And as far as his bloodthirst is concerned, much of it was british propaganda, the title "The butcher of Prague" being a propaganda onvention . Life in the protecorate was , by german occupied Europe standards , idyllic . Czech workers enjoyed the same benefits as german ones, the were no food shortages or allied bombings(with the protectorate being out of range at the time). Heydrich even went so far as to disband a local pro-nazi movement which was recruiting volunteers for the german army, judging it counter-productive.
 
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Fearless Leader

Fearless Leader

Donor
IIRC there was a TL around somewhere where Heydrich survives his assassination attempt in Prague and gets moved to France instead (or something like that). The basic gist of the TL was that Heydrich employs similar policies to those employed in Bohemia/Moravia and thus manages to greatly improve the Occupied Zone's output to the benefit of the third Reich.

With the successful assassination of Goering in August 1941, heads are going to role in terms of the administration of the German occupation of France's occupied zone. Heydrich could very well be sent to France instead of Bohemia/Moravia because Goering's assassination convinces Hitler that Neurath's "lenient" policies are the least of his problems.

Assuming Heydrich applies the same carrot/stick methods he applied in Czechoslovakia, I could see him becoming quite effective as the military governor of France provided he isn't assassinated (lord knows that the British will try even more to do so in TTL given France's increased importance and proximity). However for the sake of argument let's assume the attempts fail. The French resistance meanwhile suffers dramatically while collaboration becomes increasingly more popular with French industrial capacity being far more effectively harnessed by the Wehrmacht.

Couple this with a more effective Luftwaffe, and though the Germans will still lose, I could see the War lasting another month or two and the post-war lines being drawn slightly differently.
 

BlairWitch749

Banned
maverick said:
Erhard Milch comes to mind. Apparently competent enough that they overlooked the fact that his father was a Jew and promoted him to Field Marshall and other high offices ("Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich")

Keserlring, too.

Ernst Udet.

Even Wolfram von Richtoffen. Wouldn't that be a propaganda coup?:p
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Milch never had a combat command, in 1941 he wouldn't be acceptable... he was an administrator and that's it

Kesselring is a solid choice

you also have Jeschonek, Sperrle and Robert Ritter Von Griem

Griem was a hardcore nazi and a long time personal friend of Hitler's, he had combat command experience and he actually succeeded fat boy in OTL which probably makes the strongest case for him :p
 
TapReflex

TapReflex

Simply put: Less Czechs, More violence (Although not Turtledove's Man with The Iron Heart), and another madman loose in Argentina for Mossad to Kill.

And no Crown of St. Wenceslas' Crown myth . :(
 
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