WI: Furthest Allies can advance
- Thread starter xie323
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gloster meteor mk3
Banned
Market garden would have to be a success for a start for the western allies. Stalingrad has to be taken by the Germans as fast as possible.Moscow taken as well.
I think it would depend on how long the Nazi's can hold back the Soviet's, what resources are diverted away from the west to the east to hold them back
Craig_Truglia
Banned
Sound strategy in the East, allowing for retreats and preventing encirclements, the lack of an Afrika Korps and the capture of hundreds of thousands of Axis soldiers could have easily led to the Western Allies meeting the Russians at the border of East Prussia (in OTL, the Western Allies had an outside shot at Berlin but did not want Market Garden II.)
An Axis "all East" strategy would have prolonged the war and inevitably put all of western and central Europe, including Hungary into the western orbit.
Germany would have been set-up as an anti-Soviet buffer state, and the cold war would have been tamer, as it would have been unequivocal that the Russians couldn't easily defeat a unified German state.
Furthermore, the USSR would probably be more aggressive in Asia, as they would have less room for meddling in Europe.
An Axis "all East" strategy would have prolonged the war and inevitably put all of western and central Europe, including Hungary into the western orbit.
Germany would have been set-up as an anti-Soviet buffer state, and the cold war would have been tamer, as it would have been unequivocal that the Russians couldn't easily defeat a unified German state.
Furthermore, the USSR would probably be more aggressive in Asia, as they would have less room for meddling in Europe.
Rommel gets wounded at Arras before he can give the order to lower the guns, which allows the British to retake the town, and thus, evacuate many of it's forces to Calais, and thus get out much more equipment. With more equipment, even with an invasion scare, there won't be the desperate push for immediate-future programs over more developed ones, and thus the British are in a better position for the rest of the war. IF you can afterwards get Rommel captured behind the lines on Africa (preferably in 1941), you not only do the Germans significant damage on that Front, you also remove him from developing the defences at Normandy, thus by the time Overlord does come, the Allies are facing much less challenging obstacles to their beach-heads. Okay, not quite what you wanted, but...
Overall, things went as well as they could. I suspect that many of the scenarios outlined here (soviet loses or western success) would allow the capture of Berlin by the western allies. Make all of Germany conquored ... no division and yiu have a Very different cold war where the d-industrialization of germany might have gone further until the threat of soviets became apparent ... which would be years later given defeats during war.
Already several 1943 invasion threads. Not in the mood to put a dog in that fight.
Allies invade France in 1942. Petains Vichy government fall apart and the African colonies flip to the Allies. After a year of slowly expanding their coastal enclave into a army group size front they defeat the July offensive designed to destroy them. Mussolini is deposed shortly after and Italy asks for a armistice. In the spring of 1944 the Allies open a massive offensive with over ninety full strength divisions, including twentyfive French. 13,000 aircraft wipe the remnants of the German air force from the sky. Falling back to the Rhine in a panic the Germans fail to cover a few key crossings and at the end of June there are bridgeheads across the Rhine. Bombing of the German railroads paralyzes both industrial production and military movement. August sees chaos within Germany, mass desertions and surrenders to the US and British armies (Not a good idea with the French). In the east fanatics try to stall the Red Army, but the show more or less comes to a end with a 'Full Blooded Thrust to Berlin' with forty divisions and airborne drop on Tempelhof airfield.
Allies invade France in 1942. Petains Vichy government fall apart and the African colonies flip to the Allies. After a year of slowly expanding their coastal enclave into a army group size front they defeat the July offensive designed to destroy them. Mussolini is deposed shortly after and Italy asks for a armistice. In the spring of 1944 the Allies open a massive offensive with over ninety full strength divisions, including twentyfive French. 13,000 aircraft wipe the remnants of the German air force from the sky. Falling back to the Rhine in a panic the Germans fail to cover a few key crossings and at the end of June there are bridgeheads across the Rhine. Bombing of the German railroads paralyzes both industrial production and military movement. August sees chaos within Germany, mass desertions and surrenders to the US and British armies (Not a good idea with the French). In the east fanatics try to stall the Red Army, but the show more or less comes to a end with a 'Full Blooded Thrust to Berlin' with forty divisions and airborne drop on Tempelhof airfield.
Too many bad things can happen without L-L, but if Churchill and Stalin quarrel over Finland (Churchill wants Stalin to agree to return to pre-Winter War borders before putting RN and Merchant Navy ships in danger in the North Sea, but Stalin is unwilling), then you've slowed things down a bit.
I can think of two things here. The first is no Morgenthau Plan and the second is to replace Patton with someone a little more capable.
IMO the US/UK meet the Soviets in central Germany, barring some really weird outlier event.
The reason is simple. The Germans will send more troops to whatever front is most threatened. That front bogs down while the other front advances.
If the Soviets are on the Vistula while the US/UK are bottled up in Normandy, the Eastern Front gets all the reinforcements.
If the US/UK are on the Rhine while the Soviets are at Brest-Litovsk, the Western Front gets all the reinforcements.
And so on.
Nietzsche
Banned
You'll need a PoD before Yalta. Best bet is for Germany to more-or-less stage a fighting retreat in the West, forgetting about driving them back to the sea and simply focusing on stalling for time while whatever units are not considered absolutely vital for that shipped to the eastern front, and ensure the Soviets have to pay for every inch of ground with a gallon of blood and fuel.
They won't be advancing, obviously, but that in itself can be useful. German supply lines grow shorter, Soviet ones grow longer. Burn eastern europe to the ground, more or less. If they make their strategy knowing they're losing, and are instead fighting only to ensure as little of Germany ends up in Russian hands as possible, this can be done.
Destroy the bridges, dismantle the railroads, raze the cities and set fire to the crops.
They won't be advancing, obviously, but that in itself can be useful. German supply lines grow shorter, Soviet ones grow longer. Burn eastern europe to the ground, more or less. If they make their strategy knowing they're losing, and are instead fighting only to ensure as little of Germany ends up in Russian hands as possible, this can be done.
Destroy the bridges, dismantle the railroads, raze the cities and set fire to the crops.
Avoiding the Italian Campaign and freeing up hundreds of thousands of Axis troops for use against the Soviets or the WAllies, and leaving the Foggia and Sicily airfields in Axis hands preventing the WAllies from launching their numerous sortees over Axis held Southern and Eastern Europe while leaving the Axis within striking range of Allied Shipping in the Mediterranean, would not have allowed the Allies to get any further any faster. Marshall's idea to stop the Italian Campaign on the Gustav Line and merely hold there while transferring the bulk of forces elsewhere would be a better suggestion than simply leaving the Axis unmolested in Italy.
katchen
Banned
I think Montgomery's idea of taking Sardinia and Corsica rather than Patton's idea of taking Sicily had merit. From Corsica, land in Tuscany and attack ACROSS Italy near Pisa and Florence, cutting Italy in half. If the Appenines are weakly defended, hold a line in Tuscany against the Italians and take Northern Italy to Milan and Turin, and Venice and Trieste, then across the Julian Alps to Ljubljana before turning attention to the Italians. Accept an Italian surrender if offered, even if conditional (the Allies did the same with Finland).
If the Germans have fortified the Appenines by the time the Allies have reached it, defeat the Italians, then land on the Istrian Peninsula and drive inland across the low Julian Alps into Croatia and Slovenia to Ljubljana and Zagreb to Graz, Bratislava, Prague Budapest and Vienna, reaching Germany through Austria, Bohemia and Moravia in early 1944. The big disadvantage is that the Germans will not be fighting on two fronts, but the extension of one front and the Hungarians are dogged fighters, more so than the Italians, as the Russians found out in 1945.
If the Germans have fortified the Appenines by the time the Allies have reached it, defeat the Italians, then land on the Istrian Peninsula and drive inland across the low Julian Alps into Croatia and Slovenia to Ljubljana and Zagreb to Graz, Bratislava, Prague Budapest and Vienna, reaching Germany through Austria, Bohemia and Moravia in early 1944. The big disadvantage is that the Germans will not be fighting on two fronts, but the extension of one front and the Hungarians are dogged fighters, more so than the Italians, as the Russians found out in 1945.
Or alternately, Mark Clark is crushed by a lightning infused cow, thrown by Thor himself, just as he's about to order the advance on Rome.
Leaving Sicily be allows the axis to put pressure on shipping through the Strait of Sicily. You might be able to do Sardinia and Corsica instead of Italy (since the Axis will likely see Italy as the next target, they probably won't have too many forces there).
From Jacksons 'The Battle for Italy' & Atkinsons 'Day of Battle', Pogues biography of Marshall, and sundry bios of Eisenhower...
The decision of Sardinia (Op Brimstone) vs Sicily (Op Husky) was settled at the Symbol Conference at Casablanca in January 1943. The assistants to the Allied Combined Chiefs of Staff were directed to lay out a broad set of options in the Mediterranean for 1943. Their recommendations were for Sardinia/Corsica first in March or April, then Sicily in the summer, and other operations in the Balkans imeadiatly following. Operations against Italy directly were not specified.
Brooke objected to the priorities and argued for Sicily first, leaving other operations in the Balkans/Italy/and Sardinia aside for the moment. Churchill accepted Brookes arguments. The US leaders dont seem to have cared much either way. At this point the assumption was the Sicilian attack would occur in the spring in the March-May time frame, following the assumption the Axis would be expelled from Tunisia. That was before Eisenhower arrived and reported the Tunisian campaign would not be ended until April or May.
Despite this probable change in schedule Sicily was retained as the next target and Op. Brimstone vs Sardinia left of the schedule. Despite effective Axis air attacks from Sardinia on Allied ships in the eastern Mediterranean and its potential threat to northern Italy Sardinia/Corsica were off the table.
Eisenhower had little to say about this as his command was confined to Morroco/Algeria/Tunisia and broad Mediterranean was outside his assignment in January 1943. Churchill, Roosevelt, and the Combined Chiefs of Staff reserved that for them selves at the January conference. Ike was on his way back to Algeria before the Symbol conference was completed. Shortly after Ike had his responsibilities expanded to include the east and central Mediterranean.
Responsibility for Planning Op Husky against Sicily was handed over to Ikes HQ at the end of the Symbol conference. As was responsibility for the other vaguely identified subsequent operations. The air commanders in the Med. begin lobbying for capture of Sardinia/Corsican airfields for their use, as well as for airfields in Crete, Italy ect... That was something of a distraction which was increased by others lobbying for further operations in the Balkans. Ike directed a planning cell for Op Husky be established in his HQ, and pondered the selection of commanders, Patton became the first candidate for a US component & Montgomery was eventually chosen over Anderson, who was rapidly falling out of favor with Alexander, Ike, and others.
Planning for Op Husky was split up between Ikes HQ, Alexander as Ikes ground commander, the 8th Army, and the newly formed US 7th Army.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
If Ike let George Patton loose in Normandy with full support we could of seen WW2 end in Europe by Christmas 45. IF the Germans pulled back from France and sent every thing that could move east then it could of gone a lot different.