WI: Fantasy as "varied" as science fiction?

[Neoteros]

Playing Baldur's Gate 3 and watching Frieren has made me think about how ubiquitous certain fantasy tropes, largely dependent on D&D and Tolkien, are. Moreover, the Anglosphere seems to have a bit of a monopoly, on the fantasy genre, even if said monopoly is limited to influence (for example, not many in Japan give a damn about A Song of Ice and Fire, but isekai and fantasy anime are often set in worlds that are nothing but Japanese interpretations of post-Tolkien fantasy.

Science fiction, on the other hand, you've got several authors that contributed more or less equally to the development of the genre's most salient tropes and, as far back as the Cold War, you had competing American- and Soviet-influenced science fiction scenes, with other countries (China, Japan, etc.) contributing their own spins on the genre, especially in recent times.

So, how could one have a more polycentric development of the fantasy genre? Wuxia definitely counts but, until recently, it was a strictly East Asian phenomenon, and not many Western writers have been as influenced by it as the other way around, with certain outliers such as the Avatar series. And, I find it very weird, and a bit of a missed opportunity, that the Arabic and Romance-speaking worlds did not come up with their own Lewis or Tolkien-sized epics, for example.

 

[NoMommsen]

... well ... could it be that your 'definition' of what's 'Fantasy' or your perception of is VERY much formed and IMHO substantially narrowed by entertainment media?

Otherwise you might be able to encounter rather similar 'fantastic' stories if you would delve into the Island Sagas, the several Edda versions as well as the numerous traditions of the nordic folks, the sometimes beautifull slavic fairty tales, the stories of greek and roman heros, demi-gods 'n gods and their 'buisnesses' with the mortals, the overwhealing treasure of stories of the world of the indian, chines, japanese world of the ancients and ancestors ...
... ever heartd of the Gilgamesch-epic from mesopatamia? SEX n DRUGS n ROCH'N'ROLL all over, within the skies, the earth, the waters or even beneath everything, gay love turning around heaven to hell and back again

... hope you get it : MYTHOLOGY of and in each and every culture of this globe IS fantasy of sometimes even more overwhealming power than what even Tolkine had made od them (as he 'only' retold the transalpine (germanic, celtic, slavic) mythology in his nionetheless captivating writings.

,,, but to answer your quesrion about ... 'diversing' the 'fantasy'-buisness:

find someone willing to corrupt all the mythologies listed above​

edit:
The arabic/persian world: ever heard of the Shahnameh? An epos 6-times the Nibelungen-Saga (the real one, not the Hollywood-cut version) long.
Your seemigly somewhat ... shortened(?) perception of what modern japanese anime is capable:

Spirited Away or th epic Princess Mononoke both deepest delving into the japanese world of mythology and far from some "post-Tolkien fantasy" (what if I were japanese would render almost an ethnical insult)​

 

[Sekhmet_D]

And, I find it very weird, and a bit of a missed opportunity, that the Arabic and Romance-speaking worlds did not come up with their own Lewis or Tolkien-sized epics, for example.

I suspect the rise of fundamentalism in the former region has a lot to do with this.

 

[Nivek]

I suspect the rise of fundamentalism in the former region has a lot to do with this.

A little and chilvary novels already fill that niche? Plus Europe when all culture are very homogeneous... what's the difference?

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Playing Baldur's Gate 3 and watching Frieren has made me think about how ubiquitous certain fantasy tropes, largely dependent on D&D and Tolkien, are. Moreover, the Anglosphere seems to have a bit of a monopoly, on the fantasy genre, even if said monopoly is limited to influence (for example, not many in Japan give a damn about A Song of Ice and Fire, but isekai and fantasy anime are often set in worlds that are nothing but Japanese interpretations of post-Tolkien fantasy.

Science fiction, on the other hand, you've got several authors that contributed more or less equally to the development of the genre's most salient tropes and, as far back as the Cold War, you had competing American- and Soviet-influenced science fiction scenes, with other countries (China, Japan, etc.) contributing their own spins on the genre, especially in recent times.

So, how could one have a more polycentric development of the fantasy genre? Wuxia definitely counts but, until recently, it was a strictly East Asian phenomenon, and not many Western writers have been as influenced by it as the other way around, with certain outliers such as the Avatar series. And, I find it very weird, and a bit of a missed opportunity, that the Arabic and Romance-speaking worlds did not come up with their own Lewis or Tolkien-sized epics, for example.

Go read some more fantasy is my take on this. Fantasy is very diverse.

 

[NoMommsen]

Go read some more fantasy is my take on this. Fantasy is very diverse.

which actually is there, if you look for and don't wait for being served on a ... silver Hollywood/Cinecitta or similar platter

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Playing Baldur's Gate 3 and watching Frieren has made me think about how ubiquitous certain fantasy tropes, largely dependent on D&D and Tolkien, are. Moreover, the Anglosphere seems to have a bit of a monopoly, on the fantasy genre, even if said monopoly is limited to influence (for example, not many in Japan give a damn about A Song of Ice and Fire, but isekai and fantasy anime are often set in worlds that are nothing but Japanese interpretations of post-Tolkien fantasy.

Frieren and Isekai are explicitly meta premises that play off of fantasy tropes (what happens to the adventuring party after the quest is complete, what if real people went to a fantasy world)... They kinda need to have tropey settings.

As for more distinctly Japanese fantasy... What about like Naruto or Bleach or any other any other Shonen battle series dripping with Japanese cultural influences and steeped in Japanese myths?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I wouldn't call isekai Tolkien, I'd more call it Dragon Quest which was inspired by Wizardry which was inspired by Dungeons and Dragons which was inspired by Tolkien. It's also an incredibly devolved sort of fantasy, since you just need to look at 80s/90s Japanese media to see that their fantasy media used to be more akin to the West (90s era JRPGs are probably the best known example).

So, how could one have a more polycentric development of the fantasy genre? Wuxia definitely counts but, until recently, it was a strictly East Asian phenomenon, and not many Western writers have been as influenced by it as the other way around, with certain outliers such as the Avatar series. And, I find it very weird, and a bit of a missed opportunity, that the Arabic and Romance-speaking worlds did not come up with their own Lewis or Tolkien-sized epics, for example.

There's always Heroic Legend of Arslan by Yoshiki Tanaka (best known for Legend of Galactic Heroes) which features fantasy counterpart cultures to the Middle East with its main root in Persian mythology.

And IIRC this is basically the case anyway, but the works are fairly obscure outside of their home countries or sometimes are classified under "magical realism" or another genre.

 

[Neoteros]

I wouldn't call isekai Tolkien, I'd more call it Dragon Quest which was inspired by Wizardry which was inspired by Dungeons and Dragons which was inspired by Tolkien. It's also an incredibly devolved sort of fantasy, since you just need to look at 80s/90s Japanese media to see that their fantasy media used to be more akin to the West (90s era JRPGs are probably the best known example).

There's always Heroic Legend of Arslan by Yoshiki Tanaka (best known for Legend of Galactic Heroes) which features fantasy counterpart cultures to the Middle East with its main root in Persian mythology.

And IIRC this is basically the case anyway, but the works are fairly obscure outside of their home countries or sometimes are classified under "magical realism" or another genre.

That's more or less what I was asking here: there is plenty of fantasy media that draws from traditions other than those native to the Anglosphere and its cultural background, but even as works by authors whose first language is not English, drawing on other traditions, can be praised by critics in the Anglosphere itself, they almost never end up influencing the conception of what the fantasy genre is, among the general public; things are different nowadays, but the science fiction genre was quite multipolar since its inception, unlike the fantasy genre - even before the Dick/Lem rivalry, French authors such as Verne had a massive influence on the genre as a whole, and on the public's perception of it, not to mention Weimar-era directors such as Fritz Lang and others.

A possible POD, that I was thinking about, would be for the Neoclassical and Romantic movements in Italy to be less coldly academic, and more open to literary experimentation; there's plenty of local legends that could be used as the basis for early fantasy works. An amusing thought I had (I think @AndreaConti will like it) would be for someone to take a certain Tuscan tale, and go absolutely wild with it; given how fondly the television series loosely based on it is remembered around here, a 19th century literary remake of the source material could become quite a hit. Given how regional Italian folklore is however, any overly unitary state might not look fondly upon such endeavours - a federal Italy would probably make such developments easier, or even (far less likely) an Italy unified by a joint Murat/Savoy effort.

 

[kholieken]

I think fantasy is already diverse :
- Dark Fantasy (Elric, Black Company, Mistborn)
- Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance
- Sword Sandal / Planetary Romance (Conan, Gor, Mars)
- Talking Animal
- Low Fantasy (Sharon Shinn)
- Modern Fantasy (Harry Potter)

all of those technically categorized as fantasy. Tolkien Standard Fantasy is popular subgenre, but not everything.

 

[Neoteros]

I think fantasy is already diverse :
- Dark Fantasy (Elric, Black Company, Mistborn)
- Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance
- Sword Sandal / Planetary Romance (Conan, Gor, Mars)
- Talking Animal
- Low Fantasy (Sharon Shinn)
- Modern Fantasy (Harry Potter)

all of those technically categorized as fantasy. Tolkien Standard Fantasy is popular subgenre, but not everything.

Indeed but, until very recently, that was not the case - I was looking for a way to have different flavours of fantasy survive the Tolkien steamroller in the mid-20th century, or have wholly alternate strains develop outside the Anglosphere, during the 19th century/20th century formative years of the genre, and obtain as much international success as everything from Conan to LotR, not remaining confined to their homeland.

 

[NoMommsen]

Indeed but, until very recently, that was not the case - I was looking for a way to have different flavours of fantasy survive the Tolkien steamroller in the mid-20th century, or have wholly alternate strains develop outside the Anglosphere, during the 19th century/20th century formative years of the genre, and obtain as much international success as everything from Conan to LotR, not remaining confined to their homeland.

... you means as in: becomming PART of the anglospere ... (?)

 

[Neoteros]

... you means as in: becomming PART of the anglospere ... (?)

Nope - I was thinking about fantasy literature and media by non-Anglosphere countries not just obtaining international success as early as the mid-20th century, but also being emulated by Anglosphere fantasy authors, in their own way - it's something that's happening in the present day to some extent, but I was looking for a way to have this happen earlier on.

 

[da Racontor]

That's more or less what I was asking here: there is plenty of fantasy media that draws from traditions other than those native to the Anglosphere and its cultural background, but even as works by authors whose first language is not English, drawing on other traditions, can be praised by critics in the Anglosphere itself, they almost never end up influencing the conception of what the fantasy genre is, among the general public; things are different nowadays, but the science fiction genre was quite multipolar since its inception, unlike the fantasy genre - even before the Dick/Lem rivalry, French authors such as Verne had a massive influence on the genre as a whole, and on the public's perception of it, not to mention Weimar-era directors such as Fritz Lang and others.

A possible POD, that I was thinking about, would be for the Neoclassical and Romantic movements in Italy to be less coldly academic, and more open to literary experimentation; there's plenty of local legends that could be used as the basis for early fantasy works. An amusing thought I had (I think @AndreaConti will like it) would be for someone to take a certain Tuscan tale, and go absolutely wild with it; given how fondly the television series loosely based on it is remembered around here, a 19th century literary remake of the source material could become quite a hit. Given how regional Italian folklore is however, any overly unitary state might not look fondly upon such endeavours - a federal Italy would probably make such developments easier, or even (far less likely) an Italy unified by a joint Murat/Savoy effort.

Most if not all places have regional legends that could be turned into the basis for fantasy. It's just that they have been covered over.

And I'm sure there is preexisting literature that does forfill this, I just don't know them & they aren't as popular.

For a long time "fairy tales" etc. were seen as children's stuff, not worthy of serious works including in the pre-Tolkien Anglosphere (in the West anyway).

To avoid this in western nations I have two ideas, I'm not familiar enough with others to comment:

• Avoid the industrial(ish) era concept that everything that came before was worthless unscientific nonsense & "progress marches forward". These are so tied into what came afterwards though, that I'm not sure how to avoid it without completely changing everything.
• The other is to have nationalist try to pull a modern Snorii. One of the reasons Snorii wrote down the Norse mythologies was to show the people of Iceland that they & Scandinavian were one peoples.

 

[DougM]

Fisrt off look up a book called “Journey to the West”. It is an Asian fantasy and has such a radically different view that it is hard for some westerners to “get”. Personally I like Monkey in it.

Also not that what we call fantasy and what others call fantasy may differ so much that we don’t view it as fantasy. For example the movie HERO was definitely fantasy. Unless you think you can have a sword fight amongst the tree tops on on a lake by dipping the tip of you sword in the water to yourself out of It.

It is odd, that many folks who want “different” fantasy seam to want western tropes in non western fantasy. It is like they want western fantasy just set in non western settings.

Then you have the less traditional settings such as Gun Powder tech settings. Wild West setting, Victorian type settings, (The Darcy stories are really good) and “Urban Fantasy” using modern settings.

I think part of the reason that Fantasy gets viewed as less diverse than Sci Fi is that the defining characteristic of each is different. You can have radically different technologies in Sci Fi from Frankenstein to 2001 to Star Trek to the matrix to cyberpunk to Star Wars and beyond. And because we all use and know technology it is easy to understand But setting and magic are the two defining characteristics of fantasy. And that is harder to understand. You average person can recognize the difference between surfs, pesents and free men much less between settings such as Poland vs Germany. And even Italy is not that different, Add in that this level of info is harder to just drop into the story for the reader to see and it is hard to under the differences. One farm looks much like the other for hundreds of years and over most of a continent.
And Magic systems are even harder to make the reader understood the differencea as they seldom get how a Magic system works.
For instance most folks refer to much of fantasy as Tolkien esk. But as for magic that is almost alwas wrong. How many humans use magic in the 4 best known middle earth books? None… the wizards are NOT Human, they are more or less angles or Demi gods or avatars. But anyway they are NOT human. Also how much “big and flashy” magic do we see? Heck Gandalf almost never uses an obvious spell, and can’t even save the party from some oversized wolves. But in most fantasy that is painted with the label Tolkien Esk humans are tossing around big spells.
And D&D borrowed its Magic system from Jack Vance’s Dying Earth books.
I can think of a half dozen radically different magic systems such as a world were all magic comes from ”hosting” *my word mot the authors) demons. And many different versions. But the difference is more subtle then a Light Saber and a moon sized super laser equipped battle station.

So I suspect that Fantasy is more different than the OP thinks it is. Heck back in the 80s you used to have more fantasy on the store shelves the SciFi by far. I mostly preferred SciFi but most new books were Fantasy. And in the last few years you have started seeing a lot of fantasy with different settings and themes. I can think of one setting that is mostly about the torturer/assassin and anot that is a modern setting where Baba Yoga’s great to the whatever Grand Daughter travels between worlds in a sort of extra-dimensional travel using a house that walks on 4 giant bird legs that she made like here Great Grandma Baba Yaga thought her to do. And she visits alter worlds with Neanderthals and Cthulhus and what have you.
Yes a lot of Fantasy has elves and dwarfs and what have you, but that is the cultureAl tropes of western fantasy just as laser/ray/blaster guns and starships are part of much of SciFi.

-Doug M

 

[omnidirectional]

Does South American magic realism like Marquez or Borges count? I would count alot of David Lynch's work as a kind of Americana horror/fantasy, especially Twin Peaks and Eraserhead.

 

[Jürgen]

The problem is that we tend to define a lot of fantasy as non-fantasy if it doesn’t follow the standard formula. As example Moomins and pretty much every Disney movie are fantasy and borrow next to nothing from generic fantasy, but we define it differently for some reason.

David Eddings whatever you can think about him and his wife wrote radical different fantasy from generic fantasy, to say nothing about Bujold and her World of the Five Gods.

 

[Kalga]

Wildcard suggestion: Saddam Hussein leverage diplomacy much better than OTL (so something like avoiding the Gulf War, mainly though having somebody significant to back them in their invasion of Kuwait, which requires some other PODs in which the other middle east countries due far worse diplomatically) and through that leverage Iraqi cultural exports as an alternative to Anglo-European cultural domination.

And since he's a author of quite a few novels, you can guess where that's going...

 

[Lord High Executioner]

the science fiction genre was quite multipolar since its inception, unlike the fantasy genre

Are you asking for multipolar or multiple subgenres? Because you seem to either flip
between them or ask for "non-anglosphere generic fantasy" rather than
"fantasy as diverse in origin and subgenre as science fiction" (which, as noted, already
exists).

the Tolkien steamroller in the mid-20th century

You mean the period of the Conan-pastiche? The period of the barbarian movies? (Which in turn
owe something to the non-anglosphere sword-and-sandal genre, which qualifies as fantasy.)

Yes a lot of Fantasy has elves and dwarfs and what have you, but that is the cultureAl tropes of western fantasy just as laser/ray/blaster guns and starships are part of much of SciFi.

I haven't looked into the numbers, but I'm reasonably sure that there are far more science fiction that has rayguns and starships
than there is fantasy that has elves and dwarfs. Even if you look at Tolkien-inspired questing fantasy, unless you specifically use
a definition that includes "has elves and dwarfs".

The problem is that we tend to define a lot of fantasy as non-fantasy if it doesn’t follow the standard formula. As example Moomins and pretty much every Disney movie are fantasy and borrow next to nothing from generic fantasy, but we define it differently for some reason.

Not to mention Astrid Lindgren, and it was observed about thirty years ago that, at the time and during the eighties,
this was the best-selling fantasy series in Scandinavia. (Again, unless you deliberately narrow the definitions to get
the answers you want.)

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

>mentioning wuxia/xianxia
Based

Most plausible way to get a bipolar mainstream fantasy genre as opposed to tolkien is probably a culturally more open/free east asia. KMT wins the war, you get a mainland china that's generically authoritarian not OTL's veering from maoism to grey authoritarianism and now to fascism. This means you not only see Japanese/Taiwanese[1] stuff but more chinese stuff than OTL with less cultural constriction. Probably speeds up wuxia/xianxia stuff being noticed by a decade or two.

[1] Imo an independent taiwan still happens with a victorious kmt. They just pawn off some other faction's leadership onto it