WI Caesar intestate?

[chornedsnorkack]

Suppose Caesar leaves no will or it seems lost/revoked/invalid for sufficient reasons.
Caesar had had at least two sisters with living descendants.
One had a grandson Gaius Octavius.
Another had a living son Quintus Pedius, and also a grandson Lucius Pinarius.

OTL Caesar made a will whereby one grandnephew Gaius Octavius got 6/8, his closest relative his nephew Quintus Pedius 1/8, and the other grandnephew Lucius Pinarius also 1/8.

What would the distribution have been in case of intestacy?
How would Emperor Pedius have ruled?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

How would Emperor Pedius have ruled?

Well Pedius would not have become an Octavian analogue, if that's what you're asking. Most likely, some form of normalcy reestablishes itself, at least in the short term. Antony was curiously very invested in reconciliation immediately after the assassination, and many of the liberators were equally receptive. It was really the will and then Octavian's presence that blew everything up.

That said, I can't see this situation lasting very long-there are still factions distrustful of Antony, and Cicero is of course eager to make his return and establish Antony as the target of his invective. OTL he had Octavian, as heir to Caesar's name, as a convenient cudgel to use to bludgeon Antony, but here he doesn't-maybe he still gets Hirtius and Pansa to go along with his plans anyway, in which case Antony's situation does not look particularly great-his popularity among the Caesarian legions is not exactly that much larger than Hirtius/Pansa and allies, and IOTL he was pretty thoroughly done for until events allowed Octavian to take control of the legions and make a deal with him.

 

[isabella]

Well, Mark Antony, whose mother was a cousin of Caesar, would be undoubtedly the one to benefit more from such situation as he would be seen as the political successor to Caesar by many, specially inside their party. I am quite unsure to what would happen to Caesar‘s money and possession but surely none of his (great) nephews would be able to get much and make something who could be comparable to Augustus‘ OTL spectacular rise. Mark Antony also would be the one who would need to deal with the killers of Caesar, as his main rival for the power was too tied to the so called Liberators for being free to deal with them (Lepidus’ wife was half-sister of Brutus and sister-in-law of Cassius). In OTL Antony was initially conciliatory towards Brutus, Cassius and their allies and then changed attitude at the funeral and in my opinion that could stay the same as Antony would have reasons for being conciliatory with in the immediate aftermath of Caesar’s murder for stabilizing the situation and then fed them to the crowd during the funeral (but the latter thing could be more complicated than OTL, without the substantial donations to the Roman citizens in Caesar’s will)

 

[SlyDessertFox]

In OTL Antony was initially conciliatory towards Brutus, Cassius and their allies and then changed attitude at the funeral

And I suspect much of that change had to do with the contents of the will revealed at the funeral that won't be present ITTL. Maybe this was Antony's plan all along, but Caesar naming a clear and direct heir that was not him may have changed his calculations a bit. Even so, I do still think Antony's position is quite precarious even without Octavian storming onto the scene if and when he decides to make his big play for power.

 

[isabella]

And I suspect much of that change had to do with the contents of the will revealed at the funeral that won't be present ITTL. Maybe this was Antony's plan all along, but Caesar naming a clear and direct heir that was not him may have changed his calculations a bit. Even so, I do still think Antony's position is quite precarious even without Octavian storming onto the scene if and when he decides to make his big play for power.

If and when is the point. Could very well NOT happen without Octavian on the scene as Antony could stabilize his position as new head of the Casesarian party without taking full power in Rome. Also keep in mind who Caesar’s will and inheritance were a private thing. Octavian was NOT meant as Caesar’s political heir and maybe Lepidus is the only other one who can aspire to Caesar’s political inheritance and could not compete with Antony in this circumstances (Antony was kept away from Caesar by the conspirators for preventing him from saving the Dictator, while Lepidus was brother-in-law of the heads of the conspiracy and much less popular than Antony)

 

[chornedsnorkack]

I am quite unsure to what would happen to Caesar‘s money and possession but surely none of his (great) nephews would be able to get much

Why "surely"?
And Caesar had a living niece, too. So what was the inheritance law in case of intestacy?

 

[isabella]

Why "surely"?
And Caesar had a living niece, too. So what was the inheritance law in case of intestacy?

Because they are neither direct descendants or members of the same gens. I am not sure about what will happen but considering who Roman laws at the time were pretty strict about female inheritance and he has no brother. Still he had an uncle and that uncle had a son and a grandson but they could have been all dead before Caesar

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Octavian is the primary heir and under Roman Law sans a will Octavian inherits everything as the nearest male heir. The Will if anything makes separate provision for specific other relatives.

What Octavian also inherits is Caesar's Clients which de facto includes Marius Clients and this is irrespective of any law. Anthony is a nobody in this sense and the Caesarian party is the Clients. Lepidus is clearly in with Caesar but political heir, no way. Preferable to Anthony for sure but Anthony is a rabble rouser with limited military competence.

Throughout all that Octavian who stayed home from campaign under Caesar at his mothers pleading ( Oh the Filial Piety, how virtuously Roman of him) then after Shipwreck leads his companions on a trek across war torn Spain to join Caesar on campaign ( Oh the devotion to duty and leadership shown - such Roman virtues) then he walks into Brundisium to the acclaim of Caesars legions, takes the treasury there and raises troops ( on behalf of the Senate obviously) from amongst Caesars clients ( obviously) who would be personally loyal to him he is then inducted into the Senate and given the Privileges of a former Consul and awarded Praetorian rank retroactively so he could legally command the Caesarian army he had stolen money to raise. All the while Anthony is trying not to give him Caesars bequest. Gaius Julius Caesar who we know as Octavianus plays them like a fiddle.

The problem with any discussion on the Late Republic is after Pompeius Strabo stamps his feet and raises a dozen legions from his own lands and Marius empowers the Headcount legionaries and makes them his clients the General who can reward his Headcount troops and is willing to march on Rome is the First Man in Rome. By the time of Octavian the biggest difference is the troops are mainly Caesars Clients and Octavian ( with Agrippa Maecenas and others is smarter than everyone else.

 

[isabella]

Octavian is the primary heir and under Roman Law sans a will Octavian inherits everything as the nearest male heir. The Will if anything makes separate provision for specific other relatives.

What Octavian also inherits is Caesar's Clients which de facto includes Marius Clients and this is irrespective of any law. Anthony is a nobody in this sense and the Caesarian party is the Clients. Lepidus is clearly in with Caesar but political heir, no way. Preferable to Anthony for sure but Anthony is a rabble rouser with limited military competence.

Throughout all that Octavian who stayed home from campaign under Caesar at his mothers pleading ( Oh the Filial Piety, how virtuously Roman of him) then after Shipwreck leads his companions on a trek across war torn Spain to join Caesar on campaign ( Oh the devotion to duty and leadership shown - such Roman virtues) then he walks into Brundisium to the acclaim of Caesars legions, takes the treasury there and raises troops ( on behalf of the Senate obviously) from amongst Caesars clients ( obviously) who would be personally loyal to him he is then inducted into the Senate and given the Privileges of a former Consul and awarded Praetorian rank retroactively so he could legally command the Caesarian army he had stolen money to raise. All the while Anthony is trying not to give him Caesars bequest. Gaius Julius Caesar who we know as Octavianus plays them like a fiddle.

The problem with any discussion on the Late Republic is after Pompeius Strabo stamps his feet and raises a dozen legions from his own lands and Marius empowers the Headcount legionaries and makes them his clients the General who can reward his Headcount troops and is willing to march on Rome is the First Man in Rome. By the time of Octavian the biggest difference is the troops are mainly Caesars Clients and Octavian ( with Agrippa Maecenas and others is smarter than everyone else.

Octavian is only a DISTANT relative of Caesar FAR from being his primary heir. Without the testamentary adoption OCTAVIAN is a nobody who has right to NOTHING. Caesar’s nearest male heir could be either the elder son/grandson of Caesar’s sister Julia Major (so most likely Lucius Pinarius) or his paternal cousin, the Flamen Quirinalis Sextus Julius Caesar, if he is still alive (meaning who the governor of Syria was his son). If none of the male descendants of Caesar‘s paternal uncle is still alive is possible who the closest male heir would be Caesar’s more distant cousin Lucius Caesar (aka Mark Antony’s uncle) but without doubt that heir would NOT be the young nobody Gaius Octavius (who was adopted ONLY in Caesar’s last will)

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Octavian is the son of Atia and grandson of Julia Minor, Julia Minor is Caesar's sister so Octavian is the Great Grandson of Julius Caesars Father. ( and incidentally probably the Marian Heir in the same degree.) She raises Octavian. He gives her funeral oration and is raised to college of pontiffs and runs the Greek Games at the patron temple of Gens Julius founded by Caesar in the Forum of Caesar. Just Built. He then serves with Caesar on campaign.

The 12 tables specify:
3. As a man has provided in his will in regard to his money and the care of his property, so let it be binding. If he has no heir and dies intestate, let the nearest agnate have the inheritance. If there is no agnate, let the members of his gens have the inheritance.

The Agnate is a person descended from the same male ancestor as another specified or implied person, especially through the male line. The Next male heir after Octavian is Lucius Julius Caesar who is the Grandson of Sextus Julius Caesar Postumus who is the younger son of Sextus Julius Caesar whose elder son is Gaius Julius Caesar's Great Grandfather so not in the direct line.

This comes in because Lucius Daughter is Anthony's wife so Anthony who has actual control of Caesars property has a vested interest in muddying the waters.

None of which matters. When Octavian lands in Brundisium Caesar's army welcomes him, hands over the treasury for the Parthian war and joins him in marching on Rome while he is using public money to raise more troops. The will itself does not matter, absent a will to the contraOctavian is the Heir and if the troops accept him no will at all matters.

 

[isabella]

Octavian is the son of Atia and grandson of Julia Minor, Julia Minor is Caesar's sister so Octavian is the Great Grandson of Julius Caesars Father. ( and incidentally probably the Marian Heir in the same degree.) She raises Octavian. He gives her funeral oration and is raised to college of pontiffs and runs the Greek Games at the patron temple of Gens Julius founded by Caesar in the Forum of Caesar. Just Built. He then serves with Caesar on campaign.

The 12 tables specify:
3. As a man has provided in his will in regard to his money and the care of his property, so let it be binding. If he has no heir and dies intestate, let the nearest agnate have the inheritance. If there is no agnate, let the members of his gens have the inheritance.

The Agnate is a person descended from the same male ancestor as another specified or implied person, especially through the male line. The Next male heir after Octavian is Lucius Julius Caesar who is the Grandson of Sextus Julius Caesar Postumus who is the younger son of Sextus Julius Caesar whose elder son is Gaius Julius Caesar's Great Grandfather so not in the direct line.

This comes in because Lucius Daughter is Anthony's wife so Anthony who has actual control of Caesars property has a vested interest in muddying the waters.

None of which matters. When Octavian lands in Brundisium Caesar's army welcomes him, hands over the treasury for the Parthian war and joins him in marching on Rome while he is using public money to raise more troops. The will itself does not matter, absent a will to the contraOctavian is the Heir and if the troops accept him no will at all matters.

Lucius Pinarius is likely the closest male heir (either him or Quintus Pedius) NOT Octavius who was heir of Caesar’s younger sister. WITHOUT Caesar’s will and adoption Gaius Octavian is an adolescent nobody who would NEVER get Caesar’s inheritance or support from the troops.
If Caesar’s heir can be a male relative from the female line then Pinarius (or Pedius) is the heir as senior descendant of Caesar’s father. If Caesar‘s heir must be from the male line and the line of Caesar‘s grandfather is extinct then Lucius Julius Caesar would get the inheritance. And that Lucius Caesar is Mark Antony’s maternal uncle NOT his father-in-law (Antony right now is married to Fulvia and was married to his paternal cousin Antonia before her )

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Romans did not have primogeniture. If there was no will and several relatives of the same degree, like several sons, they took equal shares (or per stirpes). Caesar had two sisters. In the absence of will there was no reason to give 3/4 to younger sister´s grandson and 1/4 to elder sister´s descendants.

 

[Gannt the chartist]

Lucius Pinarius is likely the closest male heir (either him or Quintus Pedius) NOT Octavius who was heir of Caesar’s younger sister. WITHOUT Caesar’s will and adoption Gaius Octavian is an adolescent nobody who would NEVER get Caesar’s inheritance or support from the troops.
If Caesar’s heir can be a male relative from the female line then Pinarius (or Pedius) is the heir as senior descendant of Caesar’s father. If Caesar‘s heir must be from the male line and the line of Caesar‘s grandfather is extinct then Lucius Julius Caesar would get the inheritance. And that Lucius Caesar is Mark Antony’s maternal uncle NOT his father-in-law (Antony right now is married to Fulvia and was married to his paternal cousin Antonia before her )

You cant say that. There is so little known about either or about the order of Julia Major's marriages to say anything for sure. Aurelia is born in c120, her third child is Caesar born in 100. The latest Julia Major could be born is c103. Pedius is born in 92. We have almost no knowledge of Pinarius.

To be the mother of Pedius the assumption is that two girls get pregnant and carry to term in the age range 12 -14. Possible but not probable.

What we do know is how Octavian, Pedius and Pinarus behaved and what their contemporaries thought of of them. Pinarius serves with Anthony until Actium when he is sent to Cyrene and mints money, until one of Octavian's generals, who happens to be of the Equestrian Order the Pinarii are patrician senatorials, turns up when he hand over his legions to Octavian and is reapponted to his Governership and mints money for Augustus.

Pedius fails in election to Aedile. but seems to be a competent aide to Caesar who gets him a Praetorship, appoints him Legate where he does well. He immediately cleaves to Octavian and runs his political operation in Rome until his early death, serving alongside him as Consul.

Octavian gives the Funeral oration for his Grandmother at age 12 is appointed one of 16 Pontifex by Caesar, appointed Praefectus Urbi by Caesar, Attends numerous social engagements with Caesar, marches in Caesar's Triumphs and is accorded ( underserved) military honours by Caesar, serves as an intermediary between Caesar and favour seekers which would include Caesars clients, spends a year serving with Caesar in administering Spain, travels back to Rome is Elevated to Patrician status by Caesar, appointed Master of Horse for 43 bc by Caesar and seems to have been the advance party commander of 5 legions destined for the Parthian war when Caesar is assassinated and then he goes to Brundisium where the rest of the army acclaims him. At age 19.

There is only one person in this who clearly has Caesar's favour and trust and confidence and inherits his Auctoritas. He does not need a piece of paper to do this. It helps but is really not needed.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

There is only one person in this who clearly has Caesar's favour and trust and confidence and inherits his Auctoritas. He does not need a piece of paper to do this. It helps but is really not needed.

It is clear that he had his favor, but that is not really enough on its own to inherit all of Caesar's clients, his name, and his standing. It is pretty clear that the will was a big deal, and gave Octavian his in to the center stage of Roman political life. All the sources emphasize this. He is free to start styling himself Caesar if he wants, but without official adoption, nobody is going to take that self-styling seriously. And without the name, yes he served Caesar...so did a lot of other people, including a lot of people that actually commanded troops and made a name for themselves among them. If Octavian walks into Rome and demands he be given a consulship and all kinds of concessions or else, he will be laughed out of the city. And he won't really have any standing among the troops to contest them.

But if the adopted son of Julius Caesar walks into Rome? Well that's a whole different ballgame. He can demand a lot, just by virtue of his name, in this environment. And without a will, that's what Octavian lacks, no matter how much Julius Caesar may have personally favored him.