Just as the title says, these three Princes all swap death dates. Instead of dying in 1502, Arthur dies in 1497, while John dies in 1506 instead of 1497, and Philip of Burgundy dies in 1502. What would the effects of this be? Obviously, John dying in 1506 means that he'll likely have three or more surviving children to succeed him, which would extend Isabella's lifespan by a few months/years, with one of them being guaranteed to marry into Portugal. What happens in England though? Does Henry VII negotiate Henry's marriage to Catherine of Aragon, or would he wait a while and opt for a more prestigious Princess (Eleanor of Austria or a daughter of John and Margaret) if one is available?
WI: Arthur Tudor, Philip of Burgundy, and John of Asturias switch death dates?
- Thread starter RedKing
- Start date
So, with Arthur dead I could see Henry going for Catherine because she’ll be ready to have kids earlier than Eleanor or potential daughter of John and Margaret, and since now young Henry is the only hope of the Tudor line.
Or Elizabeth of York could survive her last pregnancy since it’d be happening earlier. If this pregnancy results in a healthy boy, maybe the Tudors wait for Eleanor or potential daughter of John and Margaret.
True, Catherine marrying Henry does make the most sense since the Tudor line is shaky now and needs new heirs ASAP. I could see Henry VII trying to get the two married by 1504/5 if he can.
Elizabeth of York is due to fall pregnant with Edmund soon, so it could happen earlier due to Arthur's early death. I could see Henry VII and Elizabeth having even more children afterwards so that they can secure the succession and have more spares to work with.
Henry VIII will be betrothed to Catherine of Aragon in place of his brother and marry her perhaps as early 1505. She’s the best choice of him in this universe, he needs an older bride to give him kids quickly, Eleanor is just too young.
Depending on the exact time of Philip’s death, it’s most likely Juana is already expecting Ferdinand, to be born in early March 1503. Mary and Catherine of Austria are butterflied away.
Juan of Asturias will get to rule Castile for about two years before his death, but not Aragon. Granted he and Margaret have a child, she’ll probably serve as regent of Castile for him/her after Juan’s death.
Depending on the exact time of Philip’s death, it’s most likely Juana is already expecting Ferdinand, to be born in early March 1503. Mary and Catherine of Austria are butterflied away.
Juan of Asturias will get to rule Castile for about two years before his death, but not Aragon. Granted he and Margaret have a child, she’ll probably serve as regent of Castile for him/her after Juan’s death.
Juan III of Castile b 1478 d 1506 m Margaret of Austria b 1480 d 1535
Infanta Isabella b 1497
Juan IV of Castile and III of Aragon b 1499
Infante Ferdinand b 1502
Infanta Maria b 1505
Infante Miguel b 1507 (posthumous)
Infanta Isabella b 1497
Juan IV of Castile and III of Aragon b 1499
Infante Ferdinand b 1502
Infanta Maria b 1505
Infante Miguel b 1507 (posthumous)
Could Henry VII try to get them married in 1504, if Henry VIII is his sole son at that point?
Would Ferdinand still be called Ferdinand in alt, or would he be given a more traditional Habsburg name, like Frederick or Maximilian? Sure he would still be born on Ferdinand of Aragon’s birthday, but that’s it, he’s still born in Austria and will be raised as an Austrian Archduke, so he could be given a different name.
Yeah, I imagine John would have at least two children by his death. I could see Margaret and Ferdinand sharing the Regency over John’s son/daughter.
Henry can only marry after his birthday in 1505, when he turns fourteen, canon age considered appropriate for a male to be married.
And with Philip death it will probably be Juana to name their son, and she could still name him after her dad, due to them sharing a birthday.
Any matches in mind for Juan’s hypothetical children? Other than the obvious Isabella of Portugal for their eldest son.
True, there have been circumstances were children were married prior to the age of fourteen, though it is more likely Henry marries at 14.
Hmm, this is true. Ferdinand could work then, but so could Philip in honour of his late Father.
If we use @BlueFlowwer 's tree for John's kids, then Isabella would likely marry a surviving Miguel de Paz or John III of Portugal, with Charles of Burgundy being a possibility. John would marry a Portuguese Infanta, while Ferdinand and Miguel marries a Spanish heiress/noblewoman. Maria could marry Charles of Burgundy or Henry VIII's son with Catherine.
All post 1502 children of Phil wouldn't be born, so there would be no Ferdinand I, no Mary of Austria, Queen of Hungary and no Catherine of Austria, Queen of Portugal.
Compared to that all English changes are absolutely and totally insignificant, since Henry married Catherine anyways IOTL and I doubt they would manage a living son here.
Ferdinand I is progenitor of almost all European monarchs post 1600, and Charles of Burgundy won't marry Anne Jagiellon, so no Austrian empire known from OTL.
Not exactly. As @dragonstoned pointed out if Philip is dying in 1502, it is possible that Joanna is already pregnant with Ferdinand, meaning that he might still exist here. Of course he may not marry Anne of Bohemia due to butterflies.
What makes you think that? Henry and Catherine came close to having a living son in OTL, they were only foiled due to a combination of bad luck and the damage done to Catherine due to her excessive fasting, both of which are likely butterflied here. There is also a chance Edmund Tudor will survive here, meaning he could marry Henry’s alt heiress or succeed him if Henry lacks a son/child.
True, even if Charles were to marry Anne, Louis could survive/have a son who could succeed him.
Well, depends on when exactly in 1502 Philip is dying but no Mary and Catherine means Louis II of Hungary is probably going to have son, and Portugal is completely different here.
Catherine always was birthing dead sons.
He didn't want to marry Anne.
Since there is no Mary of Austria, Louis of Hungary is left without a wife but Maximilian is still interested in tying him closely to the Habsburgs. Is it possible he could be offer a proxy bride, like, let’s say Beatrice of Portugal (b. 1504)? Or will is he more likely to insist on his granddaughter Isabella (b. 1501), despite the age difference between her and Louis?
I think he'll offer Isabella. She is 5 years his senior, that's not that big of an age difference.
I think it’d be more interesting to have Ferdinand exist, in which case could he still marry Anne of Bohemia, or is a German noblewoman more likely?
What about Henry, Duke of Cornwall and one of his brothers who supposedly lived for a few hours after birth? They or their alt equivalents could be more lucky and survive here.
True!
I think Isabella is the most likely bride for Louis, followed by one of Maximilian’s Bavarian nieces.
Ferdinand if he existed, would marry Anne, yes.
True, but compared to Habsburg POD that is still a minor change.
If I can, I'm giving a little tree of Louis-Isabella marriage.
Louis II, king of Bohemia and Hungary (Czech: Ludvík, Croatian: Ludovik, Hungarian: Lajos, Slovak: Ľudovít; 1 July 1506 – 29 August 1526) m. Isabella of Austria (18 July 1501 – 19 January 1526)
1) Anne (10 November 1520-31 May 1580) m. Sigismund II Augustus (Polish: Zygmunt II August, Lithuanian: Žygimantas Augustas; 1 August 1520 – 7 July 1572)
2) Elizabeth (1521-10 December 1590) m. John Zápolya, or John Szapolyai (Hungarian: Szapolyai János or Zápolya János, Croatian: Ivan Zapolja, Romanian: Ioan Zápolya, Slovak: Ján Zápoľský; 1490 or 1491 – 22 July 1540),
3) Vladislaus III of Bohemia and Hungary (1523-1583) m. Catherine Jagiellon (Polish: Katarzyna Jagiellonka; Swedish: Katarina Jagellonica, Lithuanian: Kotryna Jogailatė; 1 November 1526 – 16 September 1583)
I see, I could see Charles using them as proxies later down the line.
True, of the Spanish and Habsburg PODs it is the most miniscule of them.
Looks good!
Which "them" you're referring to? And Charles would probably marry Mary "Rose" Tudor here.
I was referring to Anne and Ferdinand’s children, should have made that clearer. Charles would definitely marry Mary or a surviving Katherine Tudor in this timeline.
Mary is more interesting option since she existed IOTL.
Short tree for Charles and Mary:
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, king of Burgundy* (24 February 1500 – 21 September 1558) m. Mary Tudor(/ˈtjuːdər/; 18 March 1496 – 25 June 1533)
1) Philip Habsburg (11 March 1516 – 1522)
2) Joanna Habsburg (16 July 1517 – 20 November 1559) .married Maximilian II, archduke of Austria (31 July 1527 – 12 October 1576)
3) Mary Habsburg (1519 – 27 September 1547) married Francis I, duke of Lorraine (French: François Ier de Lorraine) (23 August 1517 – 12 June 1545)
4) Charles Habsburg (c. 1523 – March 1534).
*since Charles has no royal crown ITTL he'd simply give himself one as HRE
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