WI: Apollo 1 Fire Avoided

[Ariosto]

Fairly certain this has been done before, but................

For the sake of argument, lets say that from one of the many recorded incidents, NASA decides that a pure oxygen atmosphere within the Command Module is actually a bad idea. Or that it might be a good idea to run such a basic test regarding such concerns. Honestly surprised that they hadn't.

What would the future of the Apollo Program, from Apollo 1 (or AS-204 as it would be known here) on?

I admit, despite being one of many fields I favor, my knowledge is rather limited, or at least mostly superficial. However, I do get the feeling that the fire destroyed much of the support for NASA that had existed within Congress, and that it was President Johnson that managed to keep it going at its OTL levels.
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[Mike Stearns]

Well, I don't know if it killed MOST of the support for Apollo, since NASA flew a total of eleven manned Apollo flights, but there were people in Congress who tried to use Apollo 1 as the instrument with which to kill the program *cough* Walter Mondale *cough*.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Would NASA have been likely to possibly avoid utilizing the pure oxygen atmosphere, or is that more of an unrealistic optimists quandary? I don't mean that as an insult. I know myself that I do that on occasion, but as I have said before, it's important to ask before 'what if' "Would or could it have happened?"

I have mixed feelings on the Apollo 1 fire. On one hand, people died and it delayed Apollo and put NASA and the space program under fire which could be said to have laid the seeds that killed Apollo and space exploration on a grand scale beyond LEO vehicles and robotic probes. On the other hand, the fire lead NASA to make changes and redesigns which I don't believe it would have otherwise, such as an air atmosphere rather than oxygen, a hatch redesign and nonflammable materials. With the fire, and this may very well be my ignorance, I think NASA would have continued with things as they had them, which could have meant a major tragedy down the road. So perhaps it was better for there to be a fire than not to be.

 

[Ariosto]

Well, I don't know if it killed MOST of the support for Apollo, since NASA flew a total of eleven manned Apollo flights, but there were people in Congress who tried to use Apollo 1 as the instrument with which to kill the program *cough* Walter Mondale *cough*.

Apollo kept flying in large part due to Johnson's support from what I have read, given that he still had enough influence to twist arms in Congress. However, I think that the fire moved a lot of Congressmen who were supportive of the program into a more ambivalent position.
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Would NASA have been likely to possibly avoid utilizing the pure oxygen atmosphere, or is that more of an unrealistic optimists quandary? I don't mean that as an insult. I know myself that I do that on occasion, but as I have said before, it's important to ask before 'what if' "Would or could it have happened?"

I have mixed feelings on the Apollo 1 fire. On one hand, people died and it delayed Apollo and put NASA and the space program under fire which could be said to have laid the seeds that killed Apollo and space exploration on a grand scale beyond LEO vehicles and robotic probes. On the other hand, the fire lead NASA to make changes and redesigns which I don't believe it would have otherwise, such as an air atmosphere rather than oxygen, a hatch redesign and nonflammable materials. With the fire, and this may very well be my ignorance, I think NASA would have continued with things as they had them, which could have meant a major tragedy down the road. So perhaps it was better for there to be a fire than not to be.

There was, quite literally, no excuse for them to have continued to excuse the safety issues regarding the number of events where the pure oxygen had started fires in one way or another; nitrogen-oxygen had been on the table for some time, but was in large part discounted due to fear of an effect like the "bends", and that it was in general heavier to carry.

However on the other issues I agree, as there were other major issues regarding the safety of the Apollo Command Capsules.

What I was hoping for was, maybe later, some event that would have prompted a review of NASA's standards, while not being serious enough to cause a congressional review.
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[Mysterion]

Well, if Deke Slayton was to be believed, Gus Grissom probably would have been the first man to set foot on the moon had he not died in the Apollo I fire.

 

[Michel Van]

Had they made never this ground Test with pure Oxygen atmospehre.

Apollo One would had made a 14 Day Test Mission as Apollo 4.
It had show several Problem with the Block 1 Design.
Next to Apollo 4 had been Apollo 5, also 14 Day Mission with CSM Block 1.
Before Launch of improved Block 2 with the LM Test Mission.

 

[Ariosto]

Had they made never this ground Test with pure Oxygen atmospehre.

Apollo One would had made a 14 Day Test Mission as Apollo 4.
It had show several Problem with the Block 1 Design.
Next to Apollo 4 had been Apollo 5, also 14 Day Mission with CSM Block 1.
Before Launch of improved Block 2 with the LM Test Mission.

You this Mike Van?
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[phx1138]

Hard as it is, IMO this was a good thing for the program. I imagine a much worse fire, probably in flight, maybe even just at launch. (Care to imagine the effect of a pad explosion on the program?)

As for whether NASA would have considered mixed gas without the fire, I doubt it. Consider, the Sovs could do it because their lifters were bigger, & they were bigger because their nukes were heavier... Is that a fix you want?

 

[Athelstane]

Hard as it is, IMO this was a good thing for the program. I imagine a much worse fire, probably in flight, maybe even just at launch. (Care to imagine the effect of a pad explosion on the program?)

There were so many defects in the Block I design - ones that really only came fully to light in the investigation after the fire, such as the hatch design, wiring insulation, etc. - that I fear that's just what would have happened.

It is a great tragedy that those men had to die. But the accident made possible a lot of changes needed to make the Apollo CSM the successful vehicle that it eventually was.

 

[Michel Van]

You this Mike Van?
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Yes that's me...
Also from me is this: Ronald Reagan's Space Exploration Initiative

On phx1138 coment

The Block 1 flights were waste of Time
NAA/Rockwell wandet First two Mission to Check Test hardware
Befor actual Hardware was send to the Moon...

 

[Ariosto]

Hard as it is, IMO this was a good thing for the program. I imagine a much worse fire, probably in flight, maybe even just at launch. (Care to imagine the effect of a pad explosion on the program?)

As for whether NASA would have considered mixed gas without the fire, I doubt it. Consider, the Sovs could do it because their lifters were bigger, & they were bigger because their nukes were heavier... Is that a fix you want?

There were so many defects in the Block I design - ones that really only came fully to light in the investigation after the fire, such as the hatch design, wiring insulation, etc. - that I fear that's just what would have happened.

It is a great tragedy that those men had to die. But the accident made possible a lot of changes needed to make the Apollo CSM the successful vehicle that it eventually was.

Alright, well, is there a way to have the fire, but keep the three men alive?
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[Sigma7]

There were so many defects in the Block I design - ones that really only came fully to light in the investigation after the fire, such as the hatch design, wiring insulation, etc. - that I fear that's just what would have happened.

It is a great tragedy that those men had to die. But the accident made possible a lot of changes needed to make the Apollo CSM the successful vehicle that it eventually was.

Sadly, this is all too true.

The only positive take away from Apollo 1 was that it forced NASA to re-examine just about every aspect of the Apollo craft on the whole AND, on top of that, it also caused the total redesign of the spacesuits worn on all future Apollo missions and beyond. (IIRC, the suits word for Apollo 1 were made of a different polymer blend than later suits- a blend that caught fire terribly easily and burned VERY quickly. The aftermath studies of the astronauts bodies contributed to the implementation of totally new suits that were more flame retardant than the originals.)

Alright, well, is there a way to have the fire, but keep the three men alive?
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That...I don't know.

Ideally, perhaps you could have them perform a unmanned plugs out to test the automated systems (including the oxygen systems) and *WHOOOSH* fire sweeps through an empty cabin.

Ground crews would still have the same difficulty trying to open the inward opening hatch (due to cabin pressure) which would, in turn, cause the same design changes there, as, I'm just spitballing here, but I can't see ANYBODY being willing to get into a Block 1 after a complete investigation is carried out and all the design flaws are exposed and you've got a burned out spacecraft there for all the astronauts to take a good look at and think "What kind of suicide machine were they going to stick us in?".

As to the suits...I'd like to think that, as an added measure of precaution, they change the composition of the suits 'just to be safe', just as readily as they change from pure oxygen to gaseous mixture.

No way of being sure they would without seeing how fast those suits burned in the actual Apollo 1 fire. They could probably guess, or, better still, run the suits through tests (after the fire) simulating an on board fire on the original suits and that'd probably tell them the same thing, so you could have that as a means to gain knowledge that the suit design was flawed.

 

[phx1138]

Ground crews would still have the same difficulty trying to open the inward opening hatch (due to cabin pressure) which would, in turn, cause the same design changes there, as, I'm just spitballing here, but I can't see ANYBODY being willing to get into a Block 1 after a complete investigation is carried out and all the design flaws are exposed and you've got a burned out spacecraft there for all the astronauts to take a good look at and think "What kind of suicide machine were they going to stick us in?".

Prima facie, this is a good solution. What I'm seeing, tho, is the prospect of a fixed spacecraft, but the more flammable suits, which IMO is the likely outcome.

That being so, I wonder if you don't get the prospect (admittedly a longshot, one I'll leave to somebody who knows more about the spacecraft & the ignition qualities of the suits) of another fire, in flight: stray sparks (after Apollo 12 is struck by lightning?) & the suits burning.

I do wonder why NASA didn't simply adopt the USAF suit design. Not enough for hard vac? No less flammable? Both?

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Another potential PoD is that Liberty Bell 7 doesn't have its hatch mishap so that Apollo is designed from the outset with an explosive opening hatch. If the fire still happens the crew are able to instantly blow the hatch off and escape

 

[Bahamut-255]

Another potential PoD is that Liberty Bell 7 doesn't have its hatch mishap so that Apollo is designed from the outset with an explosive opening hatch. If the fire still happens the crew are able to instantly blow the hatch off and escape

That was the Cruellest Irony of the whole thing. Proving Grissom right, in that the Explosive Hatches really could blow open on their own, resulted in their deletion from the Block I Apollo Capsule.

But that's one viable POD that prevents the Apollo 1 Fire from being fatal.

 

[Athelstane]

Well, if Deke Slayton was to be believed, Gus Grissom probably would have been the first man to set foot on the moon had he not died in the Apollo I fire.

It's hard to know if that was just Deke was saying that as a tribute to his friend, at least if Wally Schirra is to be believed:

In the "From the Earth to the Moon" TV series dramatizing Schirra's Apollo flight, there was a scene in which Schirra is shown telling Slayton he will be leaving NASA, but hinting that he might stay if he were given command of a flight to the Moon. Schirra says that this was artistic license:

"That was overplayed, no. The rule had been established by then, that was a published rule, that he who commands an Apollo flight will not command a second one. And it turned out to be true. The only one who flew two was Stafford, who had Apollo 10, and Apollo-Soyuz, which doesn't really count. There were a lot of guys waiting in line."

"I could see that I was out of line already. If Cooper was already out of line, how the heck could I get back in again? Betty Grissom said that Gus was in line to land on the Moon — that's a bunch of hogwash. That was pretty well bent out of shape. Deke never said that. In contrast, Deke said that we of the original seven are done, there's a whole new crew now. That I even got that Apollo flight was unusual. The second group was brought in to go to the Moon. We were supposed to be out of there by then. It just turned out they needed me, so I stayed for the Apollo 7 flight. That was unique."

Obviously there might be exceptions for backup crews in cases of emergency substitution - the Apollo 16 crew stood as backup for 17, for example, meaning they would actually have flown two missions back to back (only because there were few experienced astronauts still available with Apollo winding down). But that would have been just that - an emergency situation.

 

[The Kiat]

Well, if Deke Slayton was to be believed, Gus Grissom probably would have been the first man to set foot on the moon had he not died in the Apollo I fire.

Well Slayton did have a hand in creating the crews and rotations. The first? Who can say, but Grissom certainly would have walked on the moon.

 

[danwild6]

Maybe it would be better to have Martin build the CSM instead of North American.

 

[Michel Van]

The irony is Martin was declaired winner of Apollo contract
Then NASA explain ther were error and NAA/Rockwell had won.

Rockwell is only Company how Build US Hardware that killt astronauts
X-15, Apollo, Space shuttle
After the Apollo One Fire, it was Martin Company who fix the Bugs on CSM.

The Mercury 7 astronauts had First Seat Ticket to fly to the Moon
But only Only One ever fly to the Moon on Apollo 14
With a Apollo One as normal fligth, Grissom World be the First men on Moon.

 

[phx1138]

one viable POD that prevents the Apollo 1 Fire from being fatal.

Does it? There's a flash fire in the spacecraft, & the suits are on fire. How fast do the pad workers react to put them out, after they exit?