WI American culture not individualist, but collectivistic like the Japanese?

One of the strong defining features which Americans are proud of is their "rugged, frank, individualistic, independence-valuing, be-your-own-man, don't care what others think" culture.

Compare that with those of the "Eastern cultures" like the Mediterranean or Southern European (think Greek or Italian countryside) (somewhat) and Asian cultures (Japanese culture being the more stereotypical "extreme" one) where they value "group-mindedness, family-oriented, clannishness, surpressing personal desires for the sake of the whole, etc." Of course, these generalizations but still a meaningful cultural comparison.

What if this was different? What if in fact, American (or how about "Western" in general) culture developped differently and took on the attributes associated with the other?
 
Well, the individualistic nature of Americans can be attributed to the precedence of liberal thought (which is why socialism never took off), the absence of feudalism, and the notion of the 'wide frontier'. Liberalism is a big part of the American psyche, partly because it became independent at the time of the Enlightenment; this is liberalism not in pejorative sense used by most Americans, but in the sense that liberty is the highest political value. That insistence on individual freedom is probably a result of the fact that your War of Independence and the formation of your nation was conducted by some of the greatest liberal thinkers in history; for example, if you want a collectivist USA Jefferson's probably going to have to bite the bullet.

Maybe a nineteenth-century war of independence, dominated by socialist thought rather than liberal thought? That would certainly cause a radical change in the American psyche...
 

Keenir

Banned
maybe increase the number of immigrants from the aforementioned "eastern" nations...thus swinging the national mindset into something family- and liberty-oriented.
 
One of the strong defining features which Americans are proud of is their "rugged, frank, individualistic, independence-valuing, be-your-own-man, don't care what others think" culture.

Compare that with those of the "Eastern cultures" like the Mediterranean or Southern European (think Greek or Italian countryside) (somewhat) and Asian cultures (Japanese culture being the more stereotypical "extreme" one) where they value "group-mindedness, family-oriented, clannishness, surpressing personal desires for the sake of the whole, etc." Of course, these generalizations but still a meaningful cultural comparison.

What if this was different? What if in fact, American (or how about "Western" in general) culture developped differently and took on the attributes associated with the other?

One of the strong defining features which Americans are proud of is their "rugged, frank, individualistic, independence-valuing, be-your-own-man, don't care what others think" culture.

I'm not sure I agree with this in reference to the Greeks and Romans. IMO, Early on in both cultures, you have a bit of a clannishness. But I think both of those cultures in thier democratic/republican stages, lost this, as the aristocracy and wealthy were the primary formers of policy. Later both became places in which upward mobility was possible, but brought about a more individualistic attitude.

Not so much, What can I do for my,<insert political/cultural group>?, but how can I use the system thats in place today, for my advantage? How can I improve my lot in life, as soon as possible? JMO
 

Poison Frog

Banned
Instead of having online forums like this I suspect a more collectivistic america would have anonymous imagebaords like in Japan and OTL's 4Chan. This would be a butterfly resulting from less focus on the individual.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
One of the strong defining features which Americans are proud of is their "rugged, frank, individualistic, independence-valuing, be-your-own-man, don't care what others think" culture.

Compare that with those of the "Eastern cultures" like the Mediterranean or Southern European (think Greek or Italian countryside) (somewhat) and Asian cultures (Japanese culture being the more stereotypical "extreme" one) where they value "group-mindedness, family-oriented, clannishness, surpressing personal desires for the sake of the whole, etc." Of course, these generalizations but still a meaningful cultural comparison.

What if this was different? What if in fact, American (or how about "Western" in general) culture developped differently and took on the attributes associated with the other?

I don't think you can plausibly pursue this because your view of America (and maybe Japan too) is so mythological as to be unrealistic.

The classic of the American rugged individualist, who in fact founded the type, was Jack London; yet London was a prominent leader of the Socialist movement in the early 20thc. In many ways he was a political parvenu, he was extremely racist in his view of the Chinese, being heavily influenced by the "yellow peril" ideas of the time. Yet he made exceptions for the Japanese, who he had actually had extensive dealings with, seeing them as a nation of poets and dreamers who were being twisted into militarism.

The most distinguishing characteristic of Americans as ideologues is that we are not ideologues. Americans are practical, they do what works. It's one of the reasons that no particular dictators or tyrants have yet arisen here, dictators use ideology to justify draconian methods to force the population into the necessary ideological mold. Americans do not like molds, not even the one that says we don't like them.

It's strange that you bring up the Japanese, for they are, in this characteristic, the culture most like Americans in the world. As we know, the Japanese were never colonised by the West, despite the fact that they purposefully cut themselves off from it for over 2 centuries; because they alone of all the Asian peoples adapted their culture to it so completely. They had little folderol of inferiority feelings in that they needed this adaptation, the Westerners had a better way and they used it, no muss, no fuss. They neither turned their back on their own culture or condemned the other, they used what worked.

I don't think the Japanese are so much more collectivist than Americans, or Americans so much more individualistic than Japanese, but rather that they appear so because of their main cultural difference. Japan is possibly the most homogenous culture in the world and America probably the most diverse. Were the situations reversed, I believe the characteristics would be too.
 
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