WI: America doesen't nuke Hiroshima

The short version: disastrous. The Battle of Okinawa, just a small chain of islands on the peripheral of Japan around an area that had long been disassociated regionally with the rest of the country had something close to 100,000 deaths and is nicknamed the "Typhoon of Steel". The United States military was predicting something like 1 million to 2 million deaths in Downfall and that's not to mention the likelihood that civilian casualties would skyrocket in Japan. The Allies would also be able to begin massive coordinated bombardment and destruction of food-producing regions, which could cause famine (and would likely be used as the war effort drains men) and when the Soviet Union crosses over and begins to invade their portion of the country you know they'll be mass executions not only of soldiers but anyone considered bourgeois (which as everyone of their revolutions went, would likely include a big chunk of the proletariat too). I'd say casually, you're looking at a war within a war that is going to scar both countries for decades if not centuries at least, and perhaps upgrade it to the Hurricane or Tsunami of Steel.

You can debate the ethics of the bomb but there's no doubt the alternative invasion of Japan was painfully grim. It was assumed by Allied military its populace would fight tooth-and-nail to the death, and Okinawa exacerbated those fears even more. The result of not nuking Hiroshima will also result in the Soviet Union gaining a foothold in Japan and its likely division until one side collapses (and perhaps after that).
 
I do think it would be interesting to discuss how an invasion might progress.

But the ASB nature of the proposition is best summed up by Sec State Byrnes who asked

"What excuse will you give at your impeachment hearings for not using the bomb that could have saved American lives"

Now if we amend the WI to presume the bomb project didn't progress as well as it did IOTL so no bomb until 46 or 47 then we get an invasion
 
No bomb, still no invasion...

Unlikely...you get a blockade and continued bombing (making the rubble bounce)....

The casualties (though nowhere near the numbers that were bandied about after the war) were going to be high enough to give anyone without a built-in interest in invasion for personal ambitions (such as MacArthur) serious reservations about going ahead. Sealing off the Home Islands, possibly intervening in China (certainly around some of the port cities, for instance), and bombing, mining, and strafing anything that shows its face to patrolling aircraft is low risk, and relatively low cost in casualties for the US. Invasion, even a successful one, is very, very expensive at best.
 
Maybe one can re phrase the OP.

WI: The Manhattan project was unable to crack several critical issues with regard to building and delivering the Atomic bomb to targets in Japan, and made the use of the A Bomb on Japanese soil an untenable affair.

Given the enormous cost involved in the actual conventional invasion and occupation of Japan, is it possible that the US government would have attempted an alternate solution, such as the negotiation of a ceasefire with the Japanese Empire, demarcating a line of control across the Pacific Ocean, and cessation of further hostilities across the Asian theatre?

Do keep in mind that the POD should be well into the defeat and retreat of the Japanese, and definitely after the surrender of Germany. The ceasefire would have to be something that would not amount to any kind of Japanese surrender, given cultural issues with that, and would have to solve and address all US and British interests on the issue.

The Japanese, having seen the enormous defeat at the hands of the Americans, as well as their rapid withdrawal from Burma at the hands of the British and the Indians, may agree to such a ceasefire, keeping control over some occupied territories still in their hands, and instead choosing to focus on the colonisation of China and other territories that would not stand in the way of US/British regional interests.
 
What if, Roosevelt/Truman decides that a full scale invasion of Japan is more humane
Not going to happen. In the first place, the Bomb was an excuse to reduce the predicted casualties of invasion, which some feared might be on a scale with Okinawa (that is, horrendous:eek:). In the second place, it was never, never, never, just "invasion or Bomb".
The Americans foresaw over a million casualties to their own soldiers and up to tens of millions of Japanese, civilian and military
That's a fiction put out by Truman postwar to justify using the Bomb. He pulled the number out of thin air.
the infrastructural damage that would have occurred across the whole Island chain throwing it into full on poverty
Kind of like burning Japan's cities & shooting up all the shipping & rail that moved was already doing?:eek::confused::confused:
the most likely guerrilla warfare
Why don't I belive that?
fanatically loyal to the Emperor and in many cases preferred to take their own lives by jumping off cliffs
That's because they believed the lies being fed to them by IJA. By the time of Downfall, U.S. propaganda had gotten pretty good, actually. IDK exactly what was in the leaflets, but I'll bet "honorable captivity" & "we don't want to exterminate Japan" was part of it. See also "Emperor" below.:rolleyes:

Blockade & firebombing were ongoing & were working. It was hugely more probable Truman would simply wait out the nuts in Tokyo.

Or, with POD around 14 April 1945, FDR makes a note "Inform Japan they can keep an Emperor, just not this one", then croaks.:eek:

Or, with POD in around mid-'44, Henry Luce decides to run the pix of FDR looking like death warmed over. (He didn't OTL.) FDR loses the election. Dewey's SecState isn't that nut Byrnes, who was insisting on using the Bomb: Dewey's SecState gives Japan the assurance they want (per FDR above), Japan surrenders in April '45.

The frightening possible consequence: a major nuclear exchange between the U.S. & SU over Berlin in '48.:eek::eek: Or over Korea.:eek::eek: (Forget Cuba, it's happened long since by then.:rolleyes: BTW, tho we normally think the opposite, the Berlin Wall actually reduced the tensions.:confused:;))
 
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Prefrence

Banned
I never said I thought the full scale invasion was more humane then the nuking, I said what if Roosevelt or Truman decided agaist it, not wanting to kill innocent Japanesse civillians in the nukings, and chose a invasion plan instead. rationalizing it to be more humane

"There are no Civilians in Japan"-Brigadier General Bonner Fellers
 

Prefrence

Banned
And what is that supposed to mean?

According to the military, all Japanese were war targets. I dont think a President (Especially two with zero military experience) would disagree with the military's view on the matter.
 
I've never understood why the debate is always posed as "Bomb or invade Japan" when the alternative, assuming the Bomb is not available in time (only reason they wouldn't use it) is clearly the third one of taking the war into China instead. In all of these threads, this option is only given a passing mention.

But, by mid 1945, China is where Japan still had some strength left. The Home Islands themselves were terribly isolated by US Naval and air forces; without access to foreign resources Japan can't even feed itself, let alone field any substantial industrial-based response. Taking the war to their soil is a way of giving them a chance to die honorably and taking horrendous numbers of Allied soldiers down with them, the only way the population there could possibly strike at Allies!

But in China, they still held substantial territory, still had factories with access to some resources, and that's where the bulk of the Army was stationed. These resources and men could not help Japan directly since the US forces would simply sink anything that tried to cross over, but while they held out, the diehards in Tokyo had some sort of cause to rally to.

Meanwhile, in invading China instead of Japan, the Allies--all of them, Soviet as well as Western--could count on positive help from the locals instead of resistance to the death. Substantial forces to link up with existed under both Kuomintang and Communist banners; the common people under the Japanese yoke would also be on the Allied side. If there was no A-Bomb available yet, China seems like the obvious front to deploy Western conventional forces.

Certainly it was the obvious next front for the Soviet forces! OTL Stalin was prepared to send crushing forces down to smash the Japanese in their strongholds of North China.

In fact, that I suppose is the only reason I can think of that an invasion of China before turning to the final task of subduing the Home Islands themselves was not the obvious agenda of all Allied planners. In a race between Western and Soviet forces to secure China first, the Russians had an obvious head start due to geography. For Americans, British, and Free French to seek to meet them halfway they'd have to make landings from overseas or push at insane speeds north over the highlands from Burma to Chunking to link up with Chiang Kai-Shek. Meanwhile the Soviets would be launching massed armored assaults on the Japanese in Manchuria; once these were overrun I can see the Emperor of Japan overriding his war ministers and surrendering right there, before the Western Allies can even get any forces substantially into China itself. If Stalin does not accept a surrender and keeps his forces rolling on south, and if the loose cannon Mao links up with Soviet forces (and other Communist forces were more strongly loyal to Moscow and would of course link up immediately) then before a Western force can even muster in Sichuan or on the south coasts, the Soviet/Chinese Communist forces could be mopping up what Japanese resistance they'd face from behind.

So, I'm left to guess (because on these threads, no one ever comes forth with a less speculative explanation of American thinking that did have them planning in terms of invading Japan rather than China) that the reason Americans were going for the insanely difficult task of invading a hostile Japan rather than liberating a friendly China was that the latter was doomed to Soviet domination in any case, given the geography of the situation, and that the only way Americans could claim to have been the power who defeated Japan would be to attack the Home Islands immediately, damn the cost. There, the Russians would have been in a weak position, lacking amphibious and in fact naval capacity in general; if Japan could be subdued fast enough, the Americans might be able to claim more territory in China than if they tried to secure it directly. "Claim" of course as a fraternal big brother ally of Chiang of course, not as an occupied zone or colony! Just as Stalin would no doubt be in no way occupying his fraternal socialist partner, free peasant/proletarian China! (Actually if he were to invade China before the West could resolve Japan with either bombs or a direct invasion, there's a fair chance he'd have backed Chiang and not Mao or even a more pliant Chinese Communist, and I guess under those circumstances Chiang might have gone along with being Stalin's agent rather than facing the choice of immediate death or exile anyway.)

One notes that in these brutal realpolitik considerations, "humanity" hardly enters anywhere. I'd appreciate it if someone could give some other explanation than the speculative one I have offered, why the American war planners preferred a direct invasion of Japan over continuing the war on much more favorable terms in China. But if my guess is correct, then clearly even conserving American lives took a back seat to considerations of postwar global dominance. Of course no one outside Japan had much regard for Japanese lives during this war.

Under these circumstances I suppose it's for the best that the A-bomb was in fact available.
 

Cook

Banned
And what is that supposed to mean?

You can take it quite literally if you like. In the final stages of the war the Japanese command had gone over entirely to the Kamikaze mindset. Women and school children were being trained how to attack invading soldiers with sharpened bamboo poles. The Imperial Japanese Army no longer had a plan to defend Japan, instead they planned for the American victory to be entirely Pyrrhic; the Home Islands were to become a series of immense funeral pyres.
 

CalBear

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then we get a japanese version of occupied germany: soviet hokkaido, american honshu, chinese kyushu, and british shikoku

There was no plan for a four power occupation. It is possible that the Soviets would have invaded Hokkaido, not likely, but possible, but otherwise the occupation of Japan was a U.S. deal.
 

CalBear

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That's because it is kind of ASB, you can't get to the "what if" unless you establish exactly what causes it to occur in the first place.

It's ASB because the US has better options than invading Japan, and if nukes absolutely aren't going to be used on them then they can use a naval blockade. It'll be siege warfare and it'll lead to plenty of Japanese dying from starvation and disease but it'll work in the end with the Americans having plenty of time and the Japanese not so much.

ASB? Maybe. What is less ASB, and is in fact one of the more heavily trod Alt History scenarios is what happens if the Japanese either do not surrender or if Enola Gay suffers an engine failure on take off and the weapon is lost in the Pacific.
 
There was no plan for a four power occupation. It is possible that the Soviets would have invaded Hokkaido, not likely, but possible, but otherwise the occupation of Japan was a U.S. deal.

Why is it not likely exactly? Stalin was planning to do it and would have if the war had gone on for a few more weeks.

The Soviets unify Korea under Kim and drive even further into China. They then invade Hokkaido, which Le May has essentially cut off from Honshu at this point. Both sides suffer from terrible logistics but the Soviets eventually win the bloody struggle though air and naval supremacy and better equipped forces, despite being small.

With fear of Soviet occupation, the Japanese probably surrender to the western Allies before the battle for Hokkaido has been decided.
 
I think its rather unfair to say the allied leadership didnt care how many Japanese they killed.
Yes, their priority was to minimise their own casualties.
Yes, the Japanese military had performed abominably
But that doesnt mean they will maximise Japanese casualties - minimising your own is something rather different. And they will be aware of the effect on their own troops that being unnecessarily brutal will have
 

CalBear

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Why is it not likely exactly? Stalin was planning to do it and would have if the war had gone on for a few more weeks.

The Soviets unify Korea under Kim and drive even further into China. They then invade Hokkaido, which Le May has essentially cut off from Honshu at this point. Both sides suffer from terrible logistics but the Soviets eventually win the bloody struggle though air and naval supremacy and better equipped forces, despite being small.

With fear of Soviet occupation, the Japanese probably surrender to the western Allies before the battle for Hokkaido has been decided.

The Soviets lacked the proper equipment for one thing. It could have been done, but with far more difficulty that the Soviets believed. They were looking at it as nothing more than a wider river crossing. Not quite.
 
Could we see a possible Korea allegory here, with a Communist/Socialist North Japan occupied by the USSR and a Capitalist/Democratic South Japan occupied by the USA? With the USSR gaining control of Hokkaido, it seems possible, although with the lack of a land border (DMZ).
 
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