While doing research for my TL (shameless plug), I noticed that when the Netherlands was planning to order battleships on the eve of the First World War, they considered British and German yards, but there is no mention of American yards. Again in 1940, when there was a plan for battlecruisers, cooperation was sought with Germany but not with the United States. Does anyone have any idea why this was the case? Didn't the US export capital ships/naval technology or were there simply no yards available? I would think that the US would have been a far better fit politically, as it was a neutral power just like the Netherlands, so chances of the dealing falling through because of an international conflict (as happened both times) would be greatly reduced.
Why didn't the Netherlands consider the US as a possible supplier of battleships?
- Thread starter HJ Tulp
- Start date
I don't know about pre-WW1, but in the 1930s, the Neutrality Acts imposed arm controls and the requirement to have a license, even when selling to nonbelligerent nations. Having to deal with that extra bureaucracy and potentially not having the ship delivered (or seized) was probably a valid reason for the Dutch to not consider the US for their 1940 building plan.
Politically it's a question of who is your biggest trading partner. The answer for the dutch was the British Empire and Germany.
Look at the reaction when Argentina selected two American battleships. Imposing extra tariffs on Argentina was debated in the commons while Germany expelled the Argentine embassy's naval attache.
Then look at the chaos when Argentina wanted to sell them in 1914. Britain informed the Americans that these battleships sailing under German colours would be considered an act of war. Germany likewise informed that should these battleships join the Royal Navy it would be an act of war. Hell Greece threatened America with a trade embargo should the battleships end up in Ottoman hands.
In the interwar years German and Dutch naval industry was quiet close to each other and Germany would have been considered the only acceptable partner. They were involved with pretty much every Dutch design of the interwar era (mainly consulting rather than building but they did sell some parts too).
Thanks for the response naraic (and the others of course). Did these kind of political-economic sanctions also happen with industrialized European countries? Wouldn't choosing between the UK and Germany also mean siding politically with that country? It certainly gave that country an advantage in war, as the example of the Turkish battleships in Englands shows.
Probably but I think threats of sanctions is mostly hot air. The real threat would be reducing the reputation within one country leading to less trade.
The Espana's were the result in trilateral talks between Spain France and the UK after the Moroccan crisis. They were Spanish built by British owned firms. France required diplomatic promises that Spain would join a war between France and Italy on the French side iirc.
There was also trilateral Anglo German Portugese talks about theoretical Portugese battleships. I think they were going to be British built but Germany were to be bought off by have Portugal take loans from German banks.
The Germans felt that the Portugese wouldn't be able to pay the loans and intended to seize Portugese colonies as collateral when Portugal would default.
Yes it would to extent but that can be mitigated against.
That is why there was often compensatory agreements and multilateral talks. If someone got something someone else would get something else.
Salamis for example was to be German built but component parts came from multiple countries.
Of a country might buy battleships from country but destroyers from another as happened in one of the South American naval purchases.
Edit:I do want to read up on the ordering process of the Norwegian coastal defence battleships as I don't know any of those details.
2nd edit: I believe that Germany expelling the Argentine naval attache as mentioned abovd was more to do with details of the German bid being allegedly leaked to other bidders than losing the contract.
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For the pre WW1 period it seems to be an open competition with bids from British and German Yards with the Vulcan bid also involving Bethlehem steel. I suspect as a steel supplier mainly as they had only just acquired a shipbuilding arm and probably did not have the yard space to do more than one at a time.
Fact is the Dutch were coming so late to the party that in 1914 anything they ordered would have been seized or declared contraband of war, Naval stores being generally accepted as contraband of war.
The other factor is money. Involving the US means paying in USD or having the US accept NLG. The Dutch are more likely to have GBP or Mark reserves than USD and both Britain and Germany more likely to accept NLG as they have use for it.
For the interwar period Germany is likely to offer the best deal having limited shipbuilding orders internally and a lot of expertise, albeit getting on a bit.
Fact is the Dutch were coming so late to the party that in 1914 anything they ordered would have been seized or declared contraband of war, Naval stores being generally accepted as contraband of war.
The other factor is money. Involving the US means paying in USD or having the US accept NLG. The Dutch are more likely to have GBP or Mark reserves than USD and both Britain and Germany more likely to accept NLG as they have use for it.
For the interwar period Germany is likely to offer the best deal having limited shipbuilding orders internally and a lot of expertise, albeit getting on a bit.
The other thing to consider with the Argentinian BB's was the fact that the Brazilian and Chilean ships were built in the UK. This was a way to also stick it to them by using the US instead of having to be in debt to the UK for more money. They knew that, with the Monroe Doctrine, that they would be comfortable buying American and not having to worry about other powers having a finger in the pie so to speak.
nbcman
Donor
Could it be because the US is using Imperial measurements and not Metric? So the Dutch would either get ships in Imperial measurements or they would have to deal with US shipyards trying to build a ship using metric dimensions and most likely screwing up the measurements.
I was wondering if this was the case, I assumed the US ship building was probably not seen with the same prestige or expertise as the British or German Empire.
About buying Ships in the US - Denmark did for some time buy the armoured steel in the US for the Coastal Armoured Ships. Guns were bought in Sweden.
In the late 30’s when the Dutch would be looking, the US was ramping up battleship replacement so there could be a capacity constraint. US construction was also disproportionately more expensive at this time and the US had no experience with BC or super cruisers that the Dutch navy wanted.