What if Bismarck had the help of the Royal Navy?

[StormRyder]

So I already have an idea for this and had started to write it but I still have I road block.

So we'll some of you would think to make Britain fascist, I actually going to make Germany democratic and part of the Allies.

But this leave me with a couple big problems.
How do I get plan Z in government hands?
And how do I get a democratic Germany to build the Bismarck (and the rest of Plan Z)?

 

[Mike D]

If Germany was Allied to the UK, why would they need to build battleships for raiding convoys?

 

[Resurgam]

But this leave me with a couple big problems, how do I get a democratic Germany to build the Bismarck (and the rest of Plan Z)?

While Bismarck and Hood sortieing together is wonderful idea - I was going to do it in my Europa, Arise TL - a democratic and stable Germany kind of butterflies Bismarck... such a government would not being building such a massive ship, especially since Demo!Germany would be more likely to accept it's a Continental and not a Sea Power.

 

[Garrison]

So I already have an idea for this and had started to write it but I still have I road block.

So we'll some of you would think to make Britain fascist, I actually going to make Germany democratic and part of the Allies.

But this leave me with a couple big problems.
How do I get plan Z in government hands?
And how do I get a democratic Germany to build the Bismarck (and the rest of Plan Z)?

The thing is if they are allied to the British then it probably falls to Germany to provide the army while the British cover naval matters. If Germany has the RN on its side it doesn't need a navy, unless they are facing off against the USA? Then U-Boats would probably be more useful regardless.

 

[Hood]

So I already have an idea for this and had started to write it but I still have I road block.

So we'll some of you would think to make Britain fascist, I actually going to make Germany democratic and part of the Allies.

But this leave me with a couple big problems.
How do I get plan Z in government hands?
And how do I get a democratic Germany to build the Bismarck (and the rest of Plan Z)?

An Allied Germany, one with Britain as her ally faces entirely different naval geography (who's the primary threat/enemy or enemies?) and therefore entirely separate doctrine from otl.
I'd imagine if they are allied then germany will have complied to some degree with the naval treaties, and thus 35k tonnish.

 

[StormRyder]

such a government would not being building such a massive ship, especially since Demo!Germany would be more likely to accept it's a Continental and not a Sea Power.

he thing is if they are allied to the British then it probably falls to Germany to provide the army while the British cover naval matters. If Germany has the RN on its side it doesn't need a navy, unless they are facing off against the USA? Then U-Boats would probably be more useful regardless.

I see. good points. hmmmm 🤔 how about this: "Plan Z is a joint project between Britain and Germany." would that work? it's the only way I could make this work I could think of.

I'd imagine if they are allied then germany will have complied to some degree with the naval treaties, and thus 35k tonnish.

I already know naval treaties are going to be a pain in the ass. I might be able to do something about the London Naval Treaty as it's signed after the POD but I know I can't do anything about the Washington one. (well until WW2 makes them all null and void.)

 

[Hood]

I see. good points. hmmmm 🤔 how about this: "Plan Z is a joint project between Britain and Germany." would that work? it's the only way I could make this work I could think of.

I mean, again Plan Z was designed to counter the RN. A collab project, which is talking NATO esque ally overlap and trust, will be a very different animal. I'm sure it'll include capital ships and cruisers, perhaps even carriers for joint operations in the North Sea, but again depends wildly on who germany (and Britain) face as a threat. If its Russia then the focus will be towards the Baltic, perhaps the Barents Sea also depending on what russia is at along with containing them within the black sea, if its france then probably something designed to aid the british in a run to the sea type battle and blockade the french.
Plan Z won't be the same if Britain is on side, it changes everything.

I already know naval treaties are going to be a pain in the ass. I might be able to do something about the London Naval Treaty as it's signed after the POD but I know I can't do anything about the Washington one. (well until WW2 makes them all null and void.)

If you're looking for Bismarck as she was, along with the H class and the panzerschiffe yeah, but germany could build a solid, balanced fleet if she was given similar tonnage to France and Italy

 

[CV(N)-6]

If the Germans are allied with the UK and aren't fighting like US/Japan at once or something their fleet will be a couple of BBs to look pretty and help the RN if needed, some big cruisers to show the flag, and more light forces than the Soviet Baltic Fleet has in order to keep it in port.

 

[thaddeus]

If the Germans are allied with the UK and aren't fighting like US/Japan at once or something their fleet will be a couple of BBs to look pretty and help the RN if needed, some big cruisers to show the flag, and more light forces than the Soviet Baltic Fleet has in order to keep it in port.

if they were seriously in some alliance with the UK, say from around the time of the AGNA, the KM might have .. let's say ... 4 of an improved Scharnhorst-class with 15" guns, not impossible aircraft carriers are completed? (albeit the RN not sharing anything other than a helpful critique or two)

 

[CV(N)-6]

if they were seriously in some alliance with the UK, say from around the time of the AGNA, the KM might have .. let's say ... 4 of an improved Scharnhorst-class with 15" guns, not impossible aircraft carriers are completed? (albeit the RN not sharing anything other than a helpful critique or two)

If there's a treaty, probably 4 max of the max tonnage ships, if not still not many BBs maybe a carrier, enough cruisers for a fleet screen/scouting force with a couple on foreign stations, a good-sized DD/TB force for screening and Baltic ops, and probably a respectable coastal sub fleet with a few longer ranged units.

 

[1Big Rich]

Several years ago over on the NavWeaps Naval Fiction board, member Millsy did his 'War over Belgium" timeline (WOBTL). Germany was looking east, ,while a fascist France had designs on the Netherlands and Belgium.

It wouldn't be very far from there for a Germany that never went fascist to be allied with the western democracies, and still building Bismarck and Tirpitz, as well as other ships, against France. Perhaps Plan Z is intended to provide a task force for raiding French commerce, possibly even in the Mediterranean to cut France from its North African possessions.

Regards,

 

[StormRyder]

aren't fighting like US/Japan at once

It wouldn't be very far from there for a Germany that never went fascist to be allied with the western democracies, and still building Bismarck and Tirpitz, as well as other ships, against France. Perhaps Plan Z is intended to provide a task force for raiding French commerce, possibly even in the Mediterranean to cut France from its North African possessions.

many of the Radical ideological changes come from the outcome of the first world war. so the Allies will be OTL except for swapping the Soviet Union for Germany.

If you're looking for Bismarck as she was, along with the H class and the panzerschiffe yeah, but germany could build a solid, balanced fleet if she was given similar tonnage to France and Italy

How much could we change Bismarck before she stops being the Bismarck we know?

Plan Z won't be the same if Britain is on side, it changes everything.

I have been calling it Plan Z because the Bismark was built under it. I already knew it would be a different animal. I'm just not sure what yet. (I have already been thinking about Bismarks story herself. Like the famous promise between U-556 and Bismark)



The first things I see getting butterflied are the London Naval Treaty and the Spanish civil war(tho I could leave it alone and it won't give me a problem). My biggest butterfly believes it or not is Canada. Canada's role during WW2 was to keep Britain alive. They built and trained the British forces well the main lad was being bombed, namely the RAF during the battle of London. (I'm not sure what role I should have them take.)

 

[CV(N)-6]

many of the Radical ideological changes come from the outcome of the first world war. so the Allies will be OTL except for swapping the Soviet Union for Germany.

So... Italy gets isolated and its fleet contained by the French/Greeks/some British reinforcements, the Germans blockade the Soviets in the Baltic just like OTL and help in the Barents Sea, and the majority of the RN goes East and dropkicks the IJN?

 

[StormRyder]

So... Italy gets isolated and its fleet contained by the French/Greeks/some British reinforcements, the Germans blockade the Soviets in the Baltic just like OTL and help in the Barents Sea, and the majority of the RN goes East and dropkicks the IJN?

Ya. basically. This has the side effect of Pearl Harbor and Midway not happening. tho the US will still join the war when the Japanese attack the Philippines(due to them being a US puppet at the time)