Wessex falls, long term consequences

[Kerney]

Let's assume that Guthrum gets his wish and is able to visit Alfred for the holidays at Chippenham. The meeting is followed by a pious religious ceremony in which Alfred particpates in a manner similar to the Kings of Northumbria and East Anglia, after which nothing is heard of him again. His son is also quietly desposed of and his two daughters are fostered among those loyal to Guthrum with an eye toward marrying his heir (they are both under seven, an other daughter and son are butterflied). There is much celebrating and merry making.

That summer, more Danes settle in the south and gradually the upper class becomes increasingly Norse.

What are the long term consequences of a Daneland formerly known as England.

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

With a near total replacement of the upper class I'd imagine modern day England would be a lot more culturally Scandinavian. I do think Christianity is entrenched enough to eventually come out on top but It'll be a while. There's also the possibility of "England" being united by a Norse King giving it far more legitimacy.

Maybe English ports would be used in Raids further south to Iberia and even Atlantic-facing North Africa. I could see Norse adventures into places like Brittany, Galicia, or even the Benelux. Maybe a concerted effort by the Norse-Gaels in the Isles and Orkney along with Norse England conquer most if not all of Scotland; Same goes for Ireland though that could easily just be relegated to the coastal ports within a few decades.

A Medieval Norse-British empire based out of Jorvik would make an interesting TL.

 

[John_Smith12]

It would be interesting to see how culturally different having the centre of political power be York/Northern England rather than the south. I think it’s still likely that England gets conquered by the Normans or some other French dynasty. The demographics were just too much in the favour of France.

 

[Odinson]

Would this Dane dominated England unite into a single "Kingdom of England" or would it remain disunited (Danish lead East Anglia, Kingdom of Jorvik, etc)? While unification could happen in the long run, I don't see Guthrum or Halfdan Ragnarson willingly giving up their hard fought kingdoms' autonomy in their lifetime

 

[piratedude]

But of mixed bag inso far that a lot stays the same, but a lot also changes.
First of all, much of the danish elite would quickly become Christian, within a generation or two. The political advantages it provides, plus the constant interaction with a thoroughly christianized population would see to it.

Alfred and his brothers & father were already ruling a 'greater wessex' which included Kent, and Guthrum adds east anglia to that msking him the preeminent power in the south, but otherwise the northern situation isn't immediately changed; puppet mercia and the five boroughs still exists, the kingdom of jorvik still exists with with the old deira portion only losely tied to it.

Without Alfred's meddling the sons of Rhodri have a decent chance at unifying Wales (for a time, at least). If similar dynastic squables affect Greater wessex the same way they did jorvik then good chances for them pushing mercia back to create a border similar to the one proposed in the later 1405 tripartate indenture

 

[Wyrd]

The use of Old English as a written vernacular in England would be greatly reduced in this timeline. Old English would have more Norse in it and possibly the elite vocabulary would be Norse in origin. Unlike in OTL when we had to wait until the Middle English period to see most of the Norse words in English, it would be evident that Old English has a strong Norse element when we finally get a few written texts. Latin in England would also be affected but unlike Old English it would eventually recover (although perhaps not to pre-Viking raid levels). One interesting consequence would be the fate of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. While the Chronicle wasn't started by Alfred the Great, it was strongly supported by him and thus it might disappear in this timeline. Future historians might have problems working out the finer details of this time period.

I think it's inevitable the Danes would convert to Christianity. With the Danes fully controlling England, future kings in England will probably try to trace their ancestry back to Guthrum, Halfdan and the others. England would remain more isolated from continental Christian Europe as no Frankish or German nobleman will want his children to marry the descendants of 'dirty pagans' as opposed to the victorious Christian West Saxon dynasty of OTL. England, and probably the British Isles as a whole, looks more to Scandinavia for alliances and opportunites than to Western Europe.

 

[The Professor]

First of all, much of the danish elite would quickly become Christian, within a generation or two. The political advantages it provides, plus the constant interaction with a thoroughly christianized population would see to it.

I agree with this. It's too useful for a ruler during this period not to.

Alfred and his brothers & father were already ruling a 'greater wessex' which included Kent, and Guthrum adds east anglia to that msking him the preeminent power in the south, but otherwise the northern situation isn't immediately changed; puppet mercia and the five boroughs still exists, the kingdom of jorvik still exists with with the old deira portion only losely tied to it.

It's similar to the post Danelaw situation but the north is stronger.
At worst you'll have a "southumbrian" unification.

Without Alfred's meddling the sons of Rhodri have a decent chance at unifying Wales (for a time, at least). If similar dynastic squables affect Greater wessex the same way they did jorvik then good chances for them pushing mercia back to create a border similar to the one proposed in the later 1405 tripartate indenture

I think Wales still has the issue of partition to deal with to prevent breakup of the kingdoms.

 

[Kerney]

Maybe English ports would be used in Raids further south to Iberia and even Atlantic-facing North Africa. I could see Norse adventures into places like Brittany, Galicia, or even the Benelux. Maybe a concerted effort by the Norse-Gaels in the Isles and Orkney along with Norse England conquer most if not all of Scotland; Same goes for Ireland though that could easily just be relegated to the coastal ports within a few decades.

A Medieval Norse-British empire based out of Jorvik would make an interesting TL.

It would be a good source for raiding, though I think more would be cross channel or directed to Ireland. Otl we have Norse getting as far South as the Egypt (through the Straits of Gibraltar) and as far East as the Caspian Sea. What strikes me is the somewhat more Norsified population could add weight to say, a conquest of Ireland. I think Ireland is an easier target than Scotland. That said, if say the fall of Ireland lead to a weakening Gaelic culture, we could rename Scotland Pictland.

It would be interesting to see how culturally different having the centre of political power be York/Northern England rather than the south. I think it’s still likely that England gets conquered by the Normans or some other French dynasty. The demographics were just too much in the favour of France.

I'm not sure on this one, considering how disunited France is. Also Normandy as we know it is butterflied and half the OTL Normans probably living on a farm in Wessex.

Would this Dane dominated England unite into a single "Kingdom of England" or would it remain disunited (Danish lead East Anglia, Kingdom of Jorvik, etc)? While unification could happen in the long run, I don't see Guthrum or Halfdan Ragnarson willingly giving up their hard fought kingdoms' autonomy in their lifetime

Yeah, I agree with a divided Isles, though the South probably eventually wins, with Northumbria being caught between Scotland and Guthrumland. But a Dublin/NorthUmbria Axis would be is a stronger position.

But of mixed bag inso far that a lot stays the same, but a lot also changes.
First of all, much of the danish elite would quickly become Christian, within a generation or two. The political advantages it provides, plus the constant interaction with a thoroughly christianized population would see to it.

I'm thinking more like 3-5 generations and here's why. I also see it extending the life of Norse Paganism atl.

1) Alfred isn't founding monastararies or sponsoring religion. In fact a fair few otl monastaries are probably abandoned. Maybe some Bishoprics aren't filled, and the organization of the Church suffers. Priests aren't replaced and basically the Church Heirarchy is neglected. Most of the effective missionaries otl were Anglo Norse Christians. Those priests aren't being trained atl.

2) Odin is good, hasn't he proven it with our victory. You would have less of a narrative of the White Christ being a god for 'winners'.

3) Otl, 3-4 generations in, Norse Paganism was a going concern when Northumbria fell in 954. Under worse circumstances I don't see it taking a shorter time.

4) Cultural assimilation (both ways), makes Norse stuff more familiar. That means if the Priest is dead, the nice Anglo Dane couple feel okay asking the the Godi to bless the marriage. The Seide woman telling fortunes doesn't discriminate. As Christians Hierarchy is less availible, people make compromises and feel more and more comfortable with them and the kids and Grandkids know no other way. Otl in Northumbria, you saw the Saxon population adopting customs (going both ways) but I think it would be more Norse. I suspect all of these

The use of Old English as a written vernacular in England would be greatly reduced in this timeline. Old English would have more Norse in it and possibly the elite vocabulary would be Norse in origin. Unlike in OTL when we had to wait until the Middle English period to see most of the Norse words in English, it would be evident that Old English has a strong Norse element when we finally get a few written texts. Latin in England would also be affected but unlike Old English it would eventually recover (although perhaps not to pre-Viking raid levels). One interesting consequence would be the fate of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. While the Chronicle wasn't started by Alfred the Great, it was strongly supported by him and thus it might disappear in this timeline. Future historians might have problems working out the finer details of this time period.

I'm thinking you could have some fun cultural interactions/changes here. Saxon writing becomes rarer, but how about Runic scripts on Vellum or other such coolness. I like, everyone think Christianization is probabale or a near certainty, but if you were to find a 'solution' for to counter or role back Christianization, this would be the ideal circumstances of close contact and comprehension that such a solution might be found.

Thanks everyone for the interesting answers.

 

[Kerney]

What could be some long-term "meta" effects? For example--

A British Isles united sooner or differently, say, Guthrum's kingdom uniting with Ireland before Northumbria?

The Norse North Sea push being delayed (who wants a farm in Iceland when you can get one cheap in Wessex) but backed by a larger population base, in Britain rather than Norway.

Customs, for example, Norse and Gaelic fostering systems are very similar and is not something we talk about as mattering because it is alien to us. What things that are alien to us could be common in this timeline for a longer period?

 

[Marc Anthony]

It would be a good source for raiding, though I think more would be cross channel or directed to Ireland. Otl we have Norse getting as far South as the Egypt (through the Straits of Gibraltar) and as far East as the Caspian Sea. What strikes me is the somewhat more Norsified population could add weight to say, a conquest of Ireland. I think Ireland is an easier target than Scotland. That said, if say the fall of Ireland lead to a weakening Gaelic culture, we could rename Scotland Pictland.

I'm not sure on this one, considering how disunited France is. Also Normandy as we know it is butterflied and half the OTL Normans probably living on a farm in Wessex.

Yeah, I agree with a divided Isles, though the South probably eventually wins, with Northumbria being caught between Scotland and Guthrumland. But a Dublin/NorthUmbria Axis would be is a stronger position.

I'm thinking more like 3-5 generations and here's why. I also see it extending the life of Norse Paganism atl.

1) Alfred isn't founding monastararies or sponsoring religion. In fact a fair few otl monastaries are probably abandoned. Maybe some Bishoprics aren't filled, and the organization of the Church suffers. Priests aren't replaced and basically the Church Heirarchy is neglected. Most of the effective missionaries otl were Anglo Norse Christians. Those priests aren't being trained atl.

2) Odin is good, hasn't he proven it with our victory. You would have less of a narrative of the White Christ being a god for 'winners'.

3) Otl, 3-4 generations in, Norse Paganism was a going concern when Northumbria fell in 954. Under worse circumstances I don't see it taking a shorter time.

4) Cultural assimilation (both ways), makes Norse stuff more familiar. That means if the Priest is dead, the nice Anglo Dane couple feel okay asking the the Godi to bless the marriage. The Seide woman telling fortunes doesn't discriminate. As Christians Hierarchy is less availible, people make compromises and feel more and more comfortable with them and the kids and Grandkids know no other way. Otl in Northumbria, you saw the Saxon population adopting customs (going both ways) but I think it would be more Norse. I suspect all of these


I'm thinking you could have some fun cultural interactions/changes here. Saxon writing becomes rarer, but how about Runic scripts on Vellum or other such coolness. I like, everyone think Christianization is probabale or a near certainty, but if you were to find a 'solution' for to counter or role back Christianization, this would be the ideal circumstances of close contact and comprehension that such a solution might be found.

Thanks everyone for the interesting answers.

this

 

[Marc Anthony]

Do you have anything of your own to add?

Yes but but lately I've been checking how writing "this" when agreeing with someone, instead of parroting entire sentnces when someone else put it together nicely feels. Kind of like trying on a new outfit.

 

[Kerney]

Yes but but lately I've been checking how writing "this" when agreeing with someone, instead of parroting entire sentnces when someone else put it together nicely feels. Kind of like trying on a new outfit.

Fair enough. I erased that comment because I thought I was being snarky and misinterpreting your post as trolling.

 

[Marc Anthony]

Fair enough. I erased that comment because I thought I was being snarky and misinterpreting your post as trolling.

Well now that i think about it also just writing "this" can get pretty annoying so sorry