We are Internationalists: The Fall of Warsaw and the Rise of Europe

Ah, I suppose you're not snooty enough to be from Edinburgh.

Noooo, I leave that to Chris. I'm not quite unintelligible enough to be from Glasgow either though. I blame my lucidity and sobriety on actually coming from a town a bit away from Glasgow (called Kirkintilloch, if you can manage to pronounce that) and being half-English. But I've recently been reading a lot of interesting stuff about Glasgow's history which has encouraged my sense of civic pride!

Incidentally, if you need some good photos for the Glasgow sections of your TL (should there be any more), or even if you're just interested, check out Virtual Mitchell. It has an absolute ton of photos of Glasgow from the late 19th century on, mostly from the 20s and 30s, searchable by street or area or keyword.

Also, if you have any questions or info you need about Glasgow and area, just ask.
 
Mmm. It's a neat idea, but I don't see any reason for the Italian left to be stronger than OTL. So it's not a general strike, and they lack the ability to stand down the fascists. The army, in any case, would be on the side of the right.

I was thinking that if the land was crying out for a hero, then the Fascist's street army of OTL is not being quite as active, and perhaps the Italian left is trying to fill the political vaccum.

I actually think the national strike would be an excellent rallying point for the socialists.

But what are the Kurds, in this period? A fair number of people would considr them unwashed barbarians, just like the Turks. And the Ottomans haven't cracked down on them, yet.

Not saying it can't end in tears, I'm just saying it's not guaranteed.

The Ottomans, I think, ain't getting back Baghdad.

The oil thing is going to be much bigger in the short-run. I'm thinking that the Ataturk may be financing Turkey's leap into modernization with Mosul's oil reserves.

Ethnic tension may also escalate. I think Ataturk, with his focus on getting control of the oil producing areas, is going to "turkify" Mosul (I'm thinking sort of like Saddam Hussein's "arabization" campaign in the same area OTL). The large refugee population created by the population exchange with Greece, plus the internal displacement caused by the Greek invasion, is going to provide a large group from which to draw on for settlers for Mosul.

Interesting question, and one I Have to think about.

If the Turks get even Mosul, then the calculus of the Arab mandates will change drastically. Maybe the British attempt to unite their mandates into a single Arab kingdom, combining Iraq, Jordan, and the Hashemite ruled Holy Cities under a single king?
 

Faeelin

Banned
I was thinking that if the land was crying out for a hero, then the Fascist's street army of OTL is not being quite as active, and perhaps the Italian left is trying to fill the political vaccum.

I actually think the national strike would be an excellent rallying point for the socialists.

The British national strike?

The oil thing is going to be much bigger in the short-run. I'm thinking that the Ataturk may be financing Turkey's leap into modernization with Mosul's oil reserves.

Ethnic tension may also escalate. I think Ataturk, with his focus on getting control of the oil producing areas, is going to "turkify" Mosul (I'm thinking sort of like Saddam Hussein's "arabization" campaign in the same area OTL). The large refugee population created by the population exchange with Greece, plus the internal displacement caused by the Greek invasion, is going to provide a large group from which to draw on for settlers for Mosul.

Will the Greeks invade if the British are saying "Back off?"

IMO, what happens is you abort the war, such as it is; you get a more orderly transfer; but you get so with the Brits recognizing the Sultan in Istanbul. OTL there was a surprpising pressure to keep the Sultan on, at least as Caliph, but by 1922 it was too late. In the ATL? Attaturk isnt' the saviour he was during the war with Greece, after all.


Maybe the British attempt to unite their mandates into a single Arab kingdom, combining Iraq, Jordan, and the Hashemite ruled Holy Cities under a single king?

With Palestine still off on its own?
 
The British national strike?



Will the Greeks invade if the British are saying "Back off?"

British are having problems with troop demobilization at home, they are thinking about withdrawing from parts of their Arab mandates, I have this feeling that the Greeks (especially with King Constantine in charge) might think the British weren't going to back up "back off" by causing another international headache to deal with.

IMO, what happens is you abort the war, such as it is; you get a more orderly transfer; but you get so with the Brits recognizing the Sultan in Istanbul. OTL there was a surprpising pressure to keep the Sultan on, at least as Caliph, but by 1922 it was too late. In the ATL? Attaturk isnt' the saviour he was during the war with Greece, after all.

Kemal might not be the savior, but remember that he became Ataturk because he had the only functional Turkish army (possibly the only functional army of any ethnic group) in Anatolia. If Kemal has that army at his back (and British recognition will probably not move the army to abandon Kemal) then it doesn't matter what happens with the Sultan.

Furthermore, Greece is on the edge of civil war between the Royalists and Venizelists. The fall-out from WWI had huge effects on Turkey's political structure OTL, and since nothing about WWI changed in this ATL I think the Turks will come out with Ataturk leading a secularist government.

With Palestine still off on its own?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa . . . with all the ripples I still think the British are committed to the whole messy two-state solution. And I rescind my proposal for a mega-kingdom for the British Arab mandates. Iraq is just going to have a different brutal and bloody timeline.
 

Faeelin

Banned
British are having problems with troop demobilization at home, they are thinking about withdrawing from parts of their Arab mandates, I have this feeling that the Greeks (especially with King Constantine in charge) might think the British weren't going to back up "back off" by causing another international headache to deal with.

They don't have to support the Turks, and wouldn't. They'd simply have to withdraw their support for the Greeks. This would cause, IMO, a major problem and make the campaign clearly unwinnable. What happens as a result?

Kemal might not be the savior, but remember that he became Ataturk because he had the only functional Turkish army (possibly the only functional army of any ethnic group) in Anatolia. If Kemal has that army at his back (and British recognition will probably not move the army to abandon Kemal) then it doesn't matter what happens with the Sultan.

Mmm. Kemal is important, but even in OTL he moved very carefully. The Sultanate wasn't abolished until 1922, and the Caliphate not until 1924. Many of Attaturk's followers wanted the instuitution remained in some form, as did the National Assembly. He isn't infallible, and certainly the region has a history of coup.

Furthermore, Greece is on the edge of civil war between the Royalists and Venizelists.

I don't follow.
 
They don't have to support the Turks, and wouldn't. They'd simply have to withdraw their support for the Greeks. This would cause, IMO, a major problem and make the campaign clearly unwinnable. What happens as a result?

Okay. So by "back off" you meant no tacit British support of Greece's war in Anatolia.

If there is no British support, I think the Greeks would still manage to grab those cities on the Ionian coast. So fortified Greek outposts on the edge of Asia Minor?

Probably Greece doesn't have the refugee crisis to the same degree. Greeks in Pontus for instance would still be chased out of Anatolia, but they might not make the trek all the way to Greek proper, and instead settle in the Ionian cities.

Image: Greek official circa 1930 "Its those damn Pontian revanchists in Ephesus trying to start a war with Turkey!"

Mmm. Kemal is important, but even in OTL he moved very carefully. The Sultanate wasn't abolished until 1922, and the Caliphate not until 1924. Many of Attaturk's followers wanted the instuitution remained in some form, as did the National Assembly. He isn't infallible, and certainly the region has a history of coup.
I'm not really familiar with this period of Turkish history (I'm really not terribly familiar with ANY period of Turkish history, but I digress). How loyal Kemal's troops were is of paramount importance. If their loyalty came primarily from Kemal's exploits during the Greek War, then I agree, the Sultan-Caliph may survive in some form.

I think you should have Kemal take the Mosul vilayet (sp?). Ataturk/Ottoman/Turkish whatever would be far, far cooler with oil revenue.

AHP needs to help.

I don't follow.
I was pointing out that Greece itself was on the edge of a civil war between supporters of the King and the PM. Why I thought this backed up part of my argument is not clear to me.

Without British involvement and the Greco-Turkish War Greece may end up in a Civil War. Which would give Turkey time to get its house in order without worrying about the Greeks doing something offensive (in a military sense).

One last note:
On the parallel of the potential Italian national strike with the actual British national strike.

The British had a strong history of democracy and rule of law, so they had a pretty strong society, and even with this strength there were some very radical things said and done.

The Italians don't have this same strong history of democracy and rule of law, and they have a society that fears itself on the edge of civil war. Therefore, I believe that if a national strike were to happen in Italy, it would be viewed (perhaps correctly) as the opening salvo in a Socialist coup. This view may be shared by the Socialists themselves.

If it is viewed this way (in the UK there were politicans on both sides who viewed the British National Strike as the prelude to something larger) then the right-wing (are they Fascists?) are going to come out (into the streets) to oppose this Socialist bid for national power. Fighting between striking workers and right-wing thugs escalates. Army attempts to intervene. Stymied by railroad workers refusing to allow troop trains to run. Fighting spreads. Killing starts. Italian Civil War.
 
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Faeelin

Banned
Okay. So by "back off" you meant no tacit British support of Greece's war in Anatolia.

If there is no British support, I think the Greeks would still manage to grab those cities on the Ionian coast. So fortified Greek outposts on the edge of Asia Minor?

Probably Greece doesn't have the refugee crisis to the same degree. Greeks in Pontus for instance would still be chased out of Anatolia, but they might not make the trek all the way to Greek proper, and instead settle in the Ionian cities.


I think you should have Kemal take the Mosul vilayet (sp?). Ataturk/Ottoman/Turkish whatever would be far, far cooler with oil revenue.

AHP needs to help.

Actually, what I suggested was what AHP ultimately proposed, and so I think I'm gonna go with.
 
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