Faeelin
Banned
And he was from Glasgow?
Well, he was born in Paisley. But yes, he worked in Glasgow for a while.
Why?
And he was from Glasgow?
Well, he was born in Paisley. But yes, he worked in Glasgow for a while.
Why?
Because I live in Glasgow, and I was curious.
Ah, I suppose you're not snooty enough to be from Edinburgh.
Mmm. It's a neat idea, but I don't see any reason for the Italian left to be stronger than OTL. So it's not a general strike, and they lack the ability to stand down the fascists. The army, in any case, would be on the side of the right.
But what are the Kurds, in this period? A fair number of people would considr them unwashed barbarians, just like the Turks. And the Ottomans haven't cracked down on them, yet.
Not saying it can't end in tears, I'm just saying it's not guaranteed.
The Ottomans, I think, ain't getting back Baghdad.
Interesting question, and one I Have to think about.
I was thinking that if the land was crying out for a hero, then the Fascist's street army of OTL is not being quite as active, and perhaps the Italian left is trying to fill the political vaccum.
I actually think the national strike would be an excellent rallying point for the socialists.
The oil thing is going to be much bigger in the short-run. I'm thinking that the Ataturk may be financing Turkey's leap into modernization with Mosul's oil reserves.
Ethnic tension may also escalate. I think Ataturk, with his focus on getting control of the oil producing areas, is going to "turkify" Mosul (I'm thinking sort of like Saddam Hussein's "arabization" campaign in the same area OTL). The large refugee population created by the population exchange with Greece, plus the internal displacement caused by the Greek invasion, is going to provide a large group from which to draw on for settlers for Mosul.
Maybe the British attempt to unite their mandates into a single Arab kingdom, combining Iraq, Jordan, and the Hashemite ruled Holy Cities under a single king?
The British national strike?
Will the Greeks invade if the British are saying "Back off?"
British are having problems with troop demobilization at home, they are thinking about withdrawing from parts of their Arab mandates, I have this feeling that the Greeks (especially with King Constantine in charge) might think the British weren't going to back up "back off" by causing another international headache to deal with.
IMO, what happens is you abort the war, such as it is; you get a more orderly transfer; but you get so with the Brits recognizing the Sultan in Istanbul. OTL there was a surprpising pressure to keep the Sultan on, at least as Caliph, but by 1922 it was too late. In the ATL? Attaturk isnt' the saviour he was during the war with Greece, after all.
Kemal might not be the savior, but remember that he became Ataturk because he had the only functional Turkish army (possibly the only functional army of any ethnic group) in Anatolia. If Kemal has that army at his back (and British recognition will probably not move the army to abandon Kemal) then it doesn't matter what happens with the Sultan.
Furthermore, Greece is on the edge of civil war between the Royalists and Venizelists. The fall-out from WWI had huge effects on Turkey's political structure OTL, and since nothing about WWI changed in this ATL I think the Turks will come out with Ataturk leading a secularist government.
With Palestine still off on its own?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaa . . . with all the ripples I still think the British are committed to the whole messy two-state solution. And I rescind my proposal for a mega-kingdom for the British Arab mandates. Iraq is just going to have a different brutal and bloody timeline.
British are having problems with troop demobilization at home, they are thinking about withdrawing from parts of their Arab mandates, I have this feeling that the Greeks (especially with King Constantine in charge) might think the British weren't going to back up "back off" by causing another international headache to deal with.
Kemal might not be the savior, but remember that he became Ataturk because he had the only functional Turkish army (possibly the only functional army of any ethnic group) in Anatolia. If Kemal has that army at his back (and British recognition will probably not move the army to abandon Kemal) then it doesn't matter what happens with the Sultan.
Furthermore, Greece is on the edge of civil war between the Royalists and Venizelists.
They don't have to support the Turks, and wouldn't. They'd simply have to withdraw their support for the Greeks. This would cause, IMO, a major problem and make the campaign clearly unwinnable. What happens as a result?
I'm not really familiar with this period of Turkish history (I'm really not terribly familiar with ANY period of Turkish history, but I digress). How loyal Kemal's troops were is of paramount importance. If their loyalty came primarily from Kemal's exploits during the Greek War, then I agree, the Sultan-Caliph may survive in some form.Mmm. Kemal is important, but even in OTL he moved very carefully. The Sultanate wasn't abolished until 1922, and the Caliphate not until 1924. Many of Attaturk's followers wanted the instuitution remained in some form, as did the National Assembly. He isn't infallible, and certainly the region has a history of coup.
I was pointing out that Greece itself was on the edge of a civil war between supporters of the King and the PM. Why I thought this backed up part of my argument is not clear to me.I don't follow.
Okay. So by "back off" you meant no tacit British support of Greece's war in Anatolia.
If there is no British support, I think the Greeks would still manage to grab those cities on the Ionian coast. So fortified Greek outposts on the edge of Asia Minor?
Probably Greece doesn't have the refugee crisis to the same degree. Greeks in Pontus for instance would still be chased out of Anatolia, but they might not make the trek all the way to Greek proper, and instead settle in the Ionian cities.
I think you should have Kemal take the Mosul vilayet (sp?). Ataturk/Ottoman/Turkish whatever would be far, far cooler with oil revenue.
AHP needs to help.