I've recently read up a bit on french revanchism in the late 1800s, but I can't seem to understand the big deal with Alsace and Lorraine. Of course, It's always humiliating to loose territory, but Alsace-Lorraine is so small, and the Germans did have security and ethnic based claims. If anyone could point me at some online article that explains the subject, or is willing to just post what they know here, I'd appreciate it.
Was Alsace-Lorraine really that important?
- Thread starter crackersncheese
- Start date
The fact that the region had been completely under French control, or influence in remaining Lorraine atleast, since the 16th or 17th century; its inhabitants overwhelmingly Catholic and French-identifying; oh, and the fact that Alsatians and Lorrainians were also overwhelmingly opposed to annexation by Germany (as evident by their diaspora to North Africa, the American Midwest, and Texas.)
Lest your forget the pride and patriotism the Alsatians and Lorrainians had for the Republic fighting in the Revolution "The Marseillaise" was actually composed by them hence "Chanson de l'Armee du Rhin" (Song of the Army of the Rhine), and if they ever identified as something besides "French," it was Alsatian...never German.
Lest your forget the pride and patriotism the Alsatians and Lorrainians had for the Republic fighting in the Revolution "The Marseillaise" was actually composed by them hence "Chanson de l'Armee du Rhin" (Song of the Army of the Rhine), and if they ever identified as something besides "French," it was Alsatian...never German.
well, I understand that, but it still seems like a rather big fuss. I mean, they would've gotten it back eventually, after the German government "went soft", right?
I don't see why any nation would willing cede any of its own provinces without some major outside forces pushing them to do so.
Well the French did get compensation in the form of getting the german boot off their throat. And Lorraine was always a French Identifying state, But Alsace was majority German speaking. And by majority, I do not mean completely, just majority German Speaking.
Faeelin
Banned
So what? Quebec speaks French but I don't think there's a strong desire to be ruled from Paris.
Nationality does not equal language, especially in the 1870s.
The Alsatians were so French that the French Army committed atrocities against them in the War of 1870 - because they were considered to be Germans! *
Diaries of German soldiers serving in the newly gained territories between 1871 and 1914 often include passages like ´They loudly applauded us when marching through Alsace, but shut their windows in Lorraine.´.
The French had to continue to run a massive campaign of cultural assimilation at least into the 1970´s. A campaign ´It is cool to speak French!´ should not be needed in non-immigrant areas of France.
Their cuisine is based on Sauerkraut.
Napoleon himself once mockingly questioned whether one of his officers, who had been born in Alsace, was a ´real´ Frenchman.
* According to a recent historical documentation on French-dominated ARTE
Diaries of German soldiers serving in the newly gained territories between 1871 and 1914 often include passages like ´They loudly applauded us when marching through Alsace, but shut their windows in Lorraine.´.
The French had to continue to run a massive campaign of cultural assimilation at least into the 1970´s. A campaign ´It is cool to speak French!´ should not be needed in non-immigrant areas of France.
Their cuisine is based on Sauerkraut.
Napoleon himself once mockingly questioned whether one of his officers, who had been born in Alsace, was a ´real´ Frenchman.
* According to a recent historical documentation on French-dominated ARTE
Faeelin
Banned
The French ran a campaign of cultural assimilation throughout France until late into the 20th century, subjecting the entire nation to Parisian French culture.
And again, you base nationality on language; I reiterate my earlier question, and ask if you think that Quebecois want to return to France.
And yet, according to Europe Under Napoleon, Alsace had among the lowest rates of desertion and was one of the bastions of Napoleon's support, compared to "French" regions like Languedoc.
Certainly the idea of Napoleon mocking other people for not being truly French seems like something to take with a grain of salt....
Exactly. Most German forces fighting under Napoleon fought quite well - despite a tendency to treat them as an expandable resource. I recently read some accounts from the Peninsular Campaign supporting this position, and they were idiotically loyal in Russia.
see e.g. this poem by Heinrich Heine (English translation), :
http://cc.ysu.edu/~tacopela/MP3/TwoGrenadiersEnglishSet.html
The smart Frenchman runs away, the dumb Teuton does his duty.
This proves that the Alsace has a German national character (if such a thing exists).
Why not France, if they where so pro-french?
Well, yes, the ones who didn't go to France went elsewhere.The issue is rather complex. Most lands that the Germans took in 1871 had been taken by France using force (though seldom violence) since the Thirty Years War, by when each of the small parcels taken lamented loudly but in vain against being annexed by France, the military superpower of the era. Ironically, the oldest French possession, the Sundgau, had been sold to them by Austria well before the Thirty Years War.
In 1870/71, the annexation of the Alsace was no issue. The French governemnt had expected that and accepted it. Also, Bismarck had no great choice here. His new southern German allies had made it clear that they would not accept the invasion gate of Straßburg in French possession.
The real fuss was about Lorraine and especially the area of Metz and the lands south and southeast of the town, inhabited by French speakers (not Metz itself which was a German language isle in French speaking territory).
Here the German General Staff with its desire to take the fortress Metz in possession superseeded Bismarcks aversion against more foreign speakers added to Germany.
Subsequently, when talking about Alsace-Lorraine, the Germans had "German" Alsace in their mind while the French had "French" Lorraine before their eyes.
Had the population been asked (which never was the case) - in 1870/71 they would perhaps have voted to remain with France.
In November 1918, however, in the face of German defeat and approaching French troops, the A-L Landtag voted for independece of A-L. A fact of course completey ignored by France, but perhaps the only demonstration of public will telling what they really wanted that ever was possible in these contested lands.
While during German times, the French speaking population had received basic school training in French, after 1918, the French banned German and confronted children that had grown up in a German speaking environment with school instruction exclusively in French. After 1945, German was even forbidden in Kindergarten.
In 1870/71, the annexation of the Alsace was no issue. The French governemnt had expected that and accepted it. Also, Bismarck had no great choice here. His new southern German allies had made it clear that they would not accept the invasion gate of Straßburg in French possession.
The real fuss was about Lorraine and especially the area of Metz and the lands south and southeast of the town, inhabited by French speakers (not Metz itself which was a German language isle in French speaking territory).
Here the German General Staff with its desire to take the fortress Metz in possession superseeded Bismarcks aversion against more foreign speakers added to Germany.
Subsequently, when talking about Alsace-Lorraine, the Germans had "German" Alsace in their mind while the French had "French" Lorraine before their eyes.
Had the population been asked (which never was the case) - in 1870/71 they would perhaps have voted to remain with France.
In November 1918, however, in the face of German defeat and approaching French troops, the A-L Landtag voted for independece of A-L. A fact of course completey ignored by France, but perhaps the only demonstration of public will telling what they really wanted that ever was possible in these contested lands.
While during German times, the French speaking population had received basic school training in French, after 1918, the French banned German and confronted children that had grown up in a German speaking environment with school instruction exclusively in French. After 1945, German was even forbidden in Kindergarten.
Given that about 35% of the population left during the German occupation 5 600,000 out of 1,600,000, IIRC ), I don't think there's any perhaps about this.
Just one small point. Most of that Landtag was made of people appointed or vetted by the German authorities in Berlin ( the Ministry in charge of colonies ). The fact that they dared to vote for independence is a big condemnation on the german adminuistration.
Funny. Familly tradition says the exact reverse. French strictly forbidden, not only at school, but also as common language in the street. I think you'd better check your sources.
Again, contradicted by Familly tradition and by my own experience, if you mean German to include Alsatian 5 if not, remember that German had been forced upon the Alsatian for 4 years only at that time ). WHile I don't speak alsatian, it's the mother tongue of all my cousins and they spoke it at school, as did a few of my classmates. In rural Alsace, the schoolteachers for small kids have to know Alsatian ( no longer the case in cities ).
I think you'd better verify your sources.
Also an interesting point : in history, Alsatian language growth has always corresponded to German occupation, as a result of the people not wanting to speak german and being forbidden to speak french.
EDIT : for illustration, here is a 1890 french song http://bmarcore.club.fr/mil/mil246.html
You can check others on the loss of Alsace Lorraine http://bmarcore.club.fr/mil/ch-alsace-lorraine.html
Last edited:
Although there was a small reduction in population numbers after 1871, the 560,000 (I suppose instead of 5,600,000?) seems to be a little high. Only some 230.000 opted for France, and of these not all left the country. It would seem that reduction mainly came from Frenchmen leaving the area and from a small number of indigenes leaving as well.
The Landtag was not appointed by Berlin but elected by the A-L population in secret vote (same conditions as for Reichstags elections).
If your family lived in the German speaking area, French would of course not be seen favourably.
Local execution may differ from the decreed way. This was also the case in French times, when they introduced obligatory French instruction in 1862 but later on discovered that this didn't take place because the local teachers (mostly priests) didn't speak French and instruction continued in German.
The Landtag was not appointed by Berlin but elected by the A-L population in secret vote (same conditions as for Reichstags elections).
If your family lived in the German speaking area, French would of course not be seen favourably.
Local execution may differ from the decreed way. This was also the case in French times, when they introduced obligatory French instruction in 1862 but later on discovered that this didn't take place because the local teachers (mostly priests) didn't speak French and instruction continued in German.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Why not France, if they where so pro-french?
How do you think they made it to French Algeria? France gave them land there in compensation for what they lost in A-L.
I'm pretty sure the Sundgau was formally acquired at Westphalia, some time after the Swedes had taken it from the Habsburgs and let the French in.
It's 600,000 ( source Quid 1999 ). The 5 in front comes from changing between AZERTY and QWERTY keyboard all the time. The fact that the total population reduction was small is because the number are spread out over the period of German occupation and because 400,000 german colonists were sent in to occupy the land left by those who had left ( interestingly, after 1918, only 120,000 of those colonists left for Germany ).
Given that all alsatians were frenchmen, that distinction is meaningless; And if you try to imply that 35% of the population were from the rest of france and had only recentlmy come to Alsace, that's patently false.
That's the constitution. Unfortunately, it wasn't applied to Alsace Lorraine, as shown dy the Saverne/Zabern incident.
It was only the German invaders who did not see the french language in a favorable light. And my familly has been in Alsace since the 30 year war at least.
Alsatian, not German; It's not the same thing.
SO you're saying that the french were flexible in the application of the decrees whereas the germans were not ( and, BTW, 1862 is more than two centuries after Alsace was united to France )