Venice under the Ottomans

[corourke]

OTL Venice had a sort of love hate relationship with the Ottoman Empire from about 1500 - 1700 or so. They paradoxically relied on the protection of the Ottoman navy for trade but resented the Ottoman's subsequent power over them. At times they had a vassal-like relationship to the Ottoman Empire where they paid large tributes to the Sublime Porte.

So lets say Suleiman the Magnificent, after the failure of the siege of Vienna, besieges and conquers Venice. Venice is integrated into the Ottoman Empire in say 1531. A Doge of some type is left in power, though he swears fealty to Sultan. What does Venice look like?

Some assumptions:

• conquering Venice does not make the Ottomans unable to fight the Persians
• the Ottoman Empire then goes on a roughly historical path re: conquest in the Middle East

I don't expect the Ottomans to be able to hold on to Venice for all that long, but 50 years sounds reasonable. Maybe more, depending on how much the possession of Venice benefits the Ottoman Empire. Any Italian League formed to oppose them would lack Venice's power and actually have to deal with Venice as an ally to the Ottomans.

I think that Venice would do rather well under the Ottomans. By being more integrated with the Ottoman crown, they would have an even more favored status at the trading ports in the Levant. This could only help them financially, regardless of the tribute they would have to pay.

The Ottomans could benefit from Venetian capital in their naval ventures, perhaps the Venetians could bring modern banking techniques to the Ottoman Empire?

 

[Faeelin]

A thousand years of darkness as the Turks smash the cultural treasures of Venice, aborting the Renaissance.

More seriously: It depends. As Ottoman subjects, do the Venetians, perversely, get more access to Ottoman markets? This would make sense because they're on the front lines of the war against the Habsburgs, but I dunno if the Ottomans would recognize it.

Venice was also a major publishing center for Renaissance Europe. How does this play out under the Ottomans?

Banking, probably, yea. Hrmm.

 

[corourke]

The Venetians enjoyed a kind of favored status in Ottoman markets as it was, so I can't see how this would do anything but help them in that regard.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Since Venice's Italian territory didn't border the Ottomans, they'd have to go through Habsburg Croatia and Carniola to get there. Territories which they often raided in OTL, but never managed to get a hold on. So if they take Venice but not the area up to it...

Anyway, they'd probably only get the lagoon and possibly some areas next to it, as the Habsburgs and the neighboring Italians would be quick to divide the rest of the Venetian holdings.

 

[Smaug]

A thousand years of darkness as the Turks smash the cultural treasures of Venice, aborting the Renaissance.

More seriously: It depends. As Ottoman subjects, do the Venetians, perversely, get more access to Ottoman markets? This would make sense because they're on the front lines of the war against the Habsburgs, but I dunno if the Ottomans would recognize it.

Venice was also a major publishing center for Renaissance Europe. How does this play out under the Ottomans?

Banking, probably, yea. Hrmm.

A thousand years of darkness as the Turks smash the cultural treasures of Venice, aborting the Renaissance.

Isn't that a little harsh? I don't think the Ottomans would be that vindictive. JMO of course. I for one, consider them to be rather fair with thier subject states, at least as far a religion, to a point, and with regards to local government also.

Europe showed far more questionable behavior in the Middle East, in my opinion, while the Ottomans were quite happy to receive tribute (and troops), yet still leave a reasonable amount of self-government.

 

[Keenir]

A thousand years of darkness as the Turks smash the cultural treasures of Venice, aborting the Renaissance.

I'm going to hazard a guess, and say he was kidding.

he'd better be kidding.

 

[Faeelin]

I'm going to hazard a guess, and say he was kidding.

he'd better be kidding.

I'm sorry, but who are you to make threats to me about what's clearly a joke to anyone with a sense of humor?

Who seriously thinks that some one who goes on to suggest that the presence of a large publishing center within the OE would have huge effects is being serious?

 

[Keenir]

I'm sorry,

I forgive you.

who are you to make threats to me about what's clearly a joke to anyone with a sense of humor?

I wasn't making a threat: I was expressing a hope.

Who seriously thinks that some one who goes on to suggest that the presence of a large publishing center within the OE would have huge effects is being serious?

*raises hand*

after all, they had massive silk production as it was, so why not increase the amount of books even more than the tidal levels they had in OTL?

 

[LordKalvan]

Frankly, I do not see it possible, unless ASBs are involved. The Turks raided Friuli, but it was just that: a raid. I frankly do not see how would it be possible for them to invade and effectively conquer all of Croatia, Slavonia and at least Veneto and Friuli, to put Venice under siege. Which does not guarantee that the city will fall (not even Charlemagne took it by force).

The idea of a huge Ottoman fleet smashing the Christians fleets at Lepanto and moving North through the Adriatic to besiege Venice from the sea is equally ludicrous. Who's going to feed them?
In the war of Chioggia, the Genoese landed on the Lido and occupied it. They did not win the war. Or, just to go back to a more close simile, when the Ottomans took Otranto, they were able to keep it for just 20 years or so. And it was almost 900 km closer than Venice.

Venice never relied on the protection of the Ottoman fleet. Why should they do that? The "tributes" they paid were either to get out of unsusteinable wars, or to get access to the markets in Constantinople. Normal business practice; in the end this overhead was always passed down the line to the end users, be they in Europe or in Asia. Hint: even during their decadence (say after the peace of Passowitz, when they were effectively betrayed by the Habsburgs) Venice was still solvent enough.

 

[corourke]

Frankly, I do not see it possible, unless ASBs are involved. The Turks raided Friuli, but it was just that: a raid. I frankly do not see how would it be possible for them to invade and effectively conquer all of Croatia, Slavonia and at least Veneto and Friuli, to put Venice under siege. Which does not guarantee that the city will fall (not even Charlemagne took it by force).

I liked the idea of the Ottomans seizing only the island itself and maybe securing some land around it. They don't need the hinterland, only the city.

In the war of Chioggia, the Genoese landed on the Lido and occupied it. They did not win the war. Or, just to go back to a more close simile, when the Ottomans took Otranto, they were able to keep it for just 20 years or so. And it was almost 900 km closer than Venice.

By absorbing/vassalizing Venice, they are adding the naval power of their closest rival to their own. I don't think they would have any trouble securing the Adriatic.

Venice never relied on the protection of the Ottoman fleet. Why should they do that?

It relied on the protection of the Ottoman fleet for trade in the same way that the United States relied on the protection of the British fleet for trade in the nineteenth century. The Ottoman Empire's navy guaranteed that the Eastern Mediterranean would be safe for Venetian shipping.

The "tributes" they paid were either to get out of unsusteinable wars, or to get access to the markets in Constantinople.

It's just a matter of who's saying it. The Venetians sure didn't call it tribute, but the Turks did. And what else do you call paying someone not to attack you, if not tribute?


I refer you to the book Ottoman Seapower and Levantine Diplomacy in the Age of Discovery by Palmira Brummet. It has a lot of information relevant to this discussion.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

As a prelude to this, the Ottoman Empire would have to secure Dalmatia and all the Venetian islands in the eastern Mediterranean. Malta would be nice too, it'd make it harder for the Spanish to trouble the Ottoman Armada.

Or they could go for a mainly land-based approach, but I for that to work they'd have to either really crush the Austrians (so they can pass through their southern provinces freely and not have to worry about them breaking the siege) or get peace with them on favorable territorial terms (a land link to Friuli). I'd say that's tougher.

 

[LordKalvan]

I liked the idea of the Ottomans seizing only the island itself and maybe securing some land around it. They don't need the hinterland, only the city.



By absorbing/vassalizing Venice, they are adding the naval power of their closest rival to their own. I don't think they would have any trouble securing the Adriatic.



It relied on the protection of the Ottoman fleet for trade in the same way that the United States relied on the protection of the British fleet for trade in the nineteenth century. The Ottoman Empire's navy guaranteed that the Eastern Mediterranean would be safe for Venetian shipping.



It's just a matter of who's saying it. The Venetians sure didn't call it tribute, but the Turks did. And what else do you call paying someone not to attack you, if not tribute?


I refer you to the book Ottoman Seapower and Levantine Diplomacy in the Age of Discovery by Palmira Brummet. It has a lot of information relevant to this discussion.

If you can beieve this, you can believe anything

 

[Shadow Knight]

If you can beieve this, you can believe anything

LK you're back!

 

[LordKalvan]

LK you're back!

Whenever the serenissima is in danger, the lion of saint Mark will return

I will go back to the Fractured HRE too, no worry. I've some kind of wild ideas bubbling up re. Arnaldo da Brescia and Magister Abelardus which would be nice to share. And also half an idea that the siege of Iconium might open the door to a more energetic Thyrrenian policy in the western Mediterranean

 

[Shadow Knight]

Whenever the serenissima is in danger, the lion of saint Mark will return

LOL

Say did you get a chance to read the full last year of our TL? I know you've been pretty busy to comment but I thought I'd let you know that the year 1108 is up in the TL forum if you are so inclined to read it.

 

[LordKalvan]

LOL

Say did you get a chance to read the full last year of our TL? I know you've been pretty busy to comment but I thought I'd let you know that the year 1108 is up in the TL forum if you are so inclined to read it.

I'm fully up with the progress of the story. see the edit to my former post

 

[Faeelin]

In the war of Chioggia, the Genoese landed on the Lido and occupied it. They did not win the war. Or, just to go back to a more close simile, when the Ottomans took Otranto, they were able to keep it for just 20 years or so. And it was almost 900 km closer than Venice.

To be fair, the Ottomans had a minor civil war almost mimmediately after Otranto, and then a change of priorities.

Say the Ottomans take Southern Italy, sack Rome, and hold their position. Is Venice's position now untenable, with the mouth of the Adriatic in the hands of the Turk?

 

[Shadow Knight]

I will go back to the Fractured HRE too, no worry. I've some kind of wild ideas bubbling up re. Arnaldo da Brescia and Magister Abelardus which would be nice to share. And also half an idea that the siege of Iconium might open the door to a more energetic Thyrrenian policy in the western Mediterranean

Can't wait to see what you come up with.

I'm fully up with the progress of the story. see the edit to my former post

 

[Nekromans]

A thousand years of darkness as the Turks smash the cultural treasures of Venice, aborting the Renaissance.

Isn't that a little harsh? I don't think the Ottomans would be that vindictive. JMO of course. I for one, consider them to be rather fair with thier subject states, at least as far a religion, to a point, and with regards to local government also.

Europe showed far more questionable behavior in the Middle East, in my opinion, while the Ottomans were quite happy to receive tribute (and troops), yet still leave a reasonable amount of self-government.

I'm going to hazard a guess, and say he was kidding.

he'd better be kidding.

He THEN goes on to say "More Seriously..." This indicates that the previous statement was just his dislike of what appears to be a Happy Shiny Ottoman Empire emerging from the midsts of ATL.

Keep your Senses of Moral Outrage under control for one minute, guys. Keenir, you already got him kicked for a comment like this against the Turks, you should have learnt from everyone's outraged comments about the kicking. Granted, you didn't report him, but you STILL didn't get it was a joke from a guy with a twisted sense of humour?

(And Faeelin's comment about the Publishing Centres wasn't another joke, it was just proof that the Turks obviously WOULDN'T just burn all the books and stuff.)

Sorry if this is a rant, which it is. I just thought it was worthy of a rant.

 

[corourke]

Thank you ShadowKnight and LordKalvin for your interesting and useful posts!