Vatican in a Italian Communist State
- Thread starter Fenwick
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Italy would have probably have to reconcile the atheistic view associated with post WWII communist movements with the influence of the Catholic Church. It probably resembles Poland in that regard. I have a hard time believing a communist Italy could snuff out the Vatican and the Catholic Church without jeopardizing support among the populace.
Well it depends on the context, but I'd think they'd expel the papacy, seize the buildings of the vatican, and largely without official sanction you'd see the vandalization of much of the Italian church property. I mean looking primarily at Spanish Civil War era Spain, the tendency was that the most vicious attacks on religious authorities came organically in reprisal against the church being largely supportive of the capitalist system, and since there probably isn't a counter catholic socialist movement going on in Italy it probably takes a somewhat similar form.
Giving the relative liberalism of Italian communist and currents as Togliattism, they'd have a far far more cautious approach on religion than your average communist country; would it be only to prevent their mothers to beat them as shit.
They'd probably disnounce Latran Treaty, but I think they'd end making one of their own would it be only to look nice to other countries and not piss the overhelming Catholic population of Italy.
They'd probably disnounce Latran Treaty, but I think they'd end making one of their own would it be only to look nice to other countries and not piss the overhelming Catholic population of Italy.
The Lateran Treaty states that the Holy See will remain neutral in Italian politics and wars. Assuming the Holy See begins denouncing the Italian communists, then they would also be denouncing the Lateran Treaty (kind of). The Italian communists could take this as meaning the Treaty is no longer in effect and the communists would declare that Italy is taking back its land that the Vatican is occupying.
Assuming the POD is the Communists winning the 1948 election, I think Pope Pius XII has more sense than to denounce them (we're talking about a Pope who reigned during WWII - he knows how to keep his mouth shut). For their part, the liberal nature of Italian Communism means that there wouldn't be any great effort to suppress the Church.
There needs to be other PODs for this, how does Italy go communist? Stalin didn't want to antagonize the west that badly and Togliatti complied. Talking stuff like Party officials forcing partisans to give up land they expropriated. That's why the program of the PCI after the war was essentially social democratic.
That being said, was there a heavy anticlerical streak in large parts of Italy pre-WWII like there was in Spain? That's important.
That being said, was there a heavy anticlerical streak in large parts of Italy pre-WWII like there was in Spain? That's important.
How does Italy go communist? Well, in 1948 a lot of people thought that the Popular Democrat Front of Togliatti's Communists and Nenni's left-wing Socialists would win the election. It didn't, of course, but it seemed a real possibility at the time. If the CIA didn't assist the Christian Democrats financially (while the Soviets backed the Popular Democratic Front) the election just might have gone the other way. (Can one really conceive of a situation where the US would *not* assist the Christian Democrats? Sure. Just think "President Henry Wallace"...)
It is true that a Popular Democratic Front government would, at first, probably make conciliatory gestures toward the Church, but the Vatican would be likely to view these as deceptive--after all, they would note, at first the leaders of the People's Democracies in eastern Europe talked conciliation as well...
The Communist Party in France was in government after the war too...wasn't Thorez vice premier at that point? The PCI would be forced to play ball or just play ball willingly, it's not like Stalin can roll tanks into Rome.
Something tells me Wallace would have gotten hard on containment if he was in the White House long enough. He reversed politically in the 50s and went back to the GOP later in life.
Something tells me Wallace would have gotten hard on containment if he was in the White House long enough. He reversed politically in the 50s and went back to the GOP later in life.
The PCF was in the French government in until 1947 (as was the PCI in the Italian government at the time) but it didn't by any stretch of the imagination dominate it the way the PCI would have dominated a Popular Democratic Front government in Italy in 1948. Nenni would not have been a real check on them because Nenni himself was very pro-PCI and pro-Soviet until the Soviet suppression of the Hungarian Revolution in 1956.
Delta Force
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Wouldn't it limit the ability of the Pope and the Catholic Church to speak out against communism in general? After all, it would be denouncing an ideology and the government of Communist Italy.
Things could also be complicated if the Communist Italian government decides to cease recognizing the Holy See, or simply decides to make things difficult for them. The Vatican is too small to host embassies, so they are located in Rome. Non-recognition of the Holy See would be far more of a diplomatic headache than the pre-Laterean situation, which was only a territorial dispute.
Things could also be complicated if the Communist Italian government decides to cease recognizing the Holy See, or simply decides to make things difficult for them. The Vatican is too small to host embassies, so they are located in Rome. Non-recognition of the Holy See would be far more of a diplomatic headache than the pre-Laterean situation, which was only a territorial dispute.
It comes down to a couple of things: what contingency plans did the US have in mind? What was the coalition actually planning to do, and what is Stalin thinking?
I gotta look more into Gladio and the PCI at the time to be honest, but I'm at work.
I dont think so. You would have Catholics around the world suddenly in an uproar. And American Evangelicals, outside of the ones who think the Pope is the anti-christ, would be the same. In fact, such an event would probably make relations the closest among the various denominations since Luther. Taking back the Vatican would be a dangerous event and something Moscow would never approve.
To put in perspective, the treatment of Catholics in North Vietnam was a propaganda tool used to inspire American intervention. If the treatment of Catholics in Vietnam helped inspire intervention there, how hard would it be for an American president to not stand up for the Vatican?
1) the Roman Catholic Church has a long history of reaching accommodation with hostile powers, and
2) this is Italy. If the Communists got too rough with the Church, it would damage them more than it. Even Soviet occupied Poland had to treat the Church with some respect.
Thus, I suspect that there'll be a Concordat, the Pope stays in the Vatican, and makes only pro forma denunciations of Communism. Said denunciations accompanied AS OTL by denunciations of unbridled capitalism.
2) this is Italy. If the Communists got too rough with the Church, it would damage them more than it. Even Soviet occupied Poland had to treat the Church with some respect.
Thus, I suspect that there'll be a Concordat, the Pope stays in the Vatican, and makes only pro forma denunciations of Communism. Said denunciations accompanied AS OTL by denunciations of unbridled capitalism.