Thankfully you've never had to deal with that I'm sure. Certainly not to the point of needing to make special threads to contain such speculation.
Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
- Start date
I should note that speculation on reconstruction would be fine. It is the "Lincoln as a leftish icon" that I think is too far ahead. Admittedly, I also feel that turning him into a leftish icon and generally leftist interpretation of war and/or reconstruction are thrown around without caution. Like as a leftist I can understand that desire, but is it really warranted ? To some degree yes, but I would advise caution here.
i agree with this , I did contribute to this myself so I will refrain from doing so and going more off topic, “ Marxist Lincolnite Thought” was a joke I thought was funny to be fair though lol
I’m very interested to see what his legacy ends up being and how complicated it is
It was a little funny, that I will admit. As for Licoln's legacy, I'm interested too, but as noted it is too early to tell. When we get to Reconstruction, then we are going to have something to base are discussion on.
This is true . Until then I’ll ponder if my ancestors still managed to not get killed by Champ Ferguson in this timeline as well lol
yeah I have an ancestor or too that deserted from the confederate army they had to hide, I do wonder if they make it or not.
Welp. The South and its Slavocracy are doomed.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll kick back, relax and smugly snack Popcorn while watching Uncle Billy light up the Fireworks.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll kick back, relax and smugly snack Popcorn while watching Uncle Billy light up the Fireworks.
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Considering that I doubt Rutherford Hayes would become President ITTL, a minor yet still prominent repercussion for Latin America would be that Paraguay would be even smaller ITTL with how, IIRC, his diplomatic actions are a major reason why Paraguay still exists after the War of the Triple Alliance (which has made him somewhat of a hero to Paraguayans):
www.atlasobscura.com
Rutherford B. Hayes Is More Famous in Paraguay Than in the U.S.
The 19th U.S. President lends his name to a city, region, school, and annual festival.
www.atlasobscura.com
Forget about being minor, it wouldn't even exist in the first place because the original plan of the Argentinians and Brazilians was to simply carve up the two between them... Which would've led into more frontier for them to argue about which would lead into another war where, if we're being honest, would see Brazil trounce them given they were the ones with the experienced armies who had chased after Solano Lopez for 4 years, meaning Brazil would get all the former territory that was Paraguay as well as other territories from Argentina.Considering that I doubt Rutherford Hayes would become President ITTL, a minor yet still prominent repercussion for Latin America would be that Paraguay would be even smaller ITTL with how, IIRC, his diplomatic actions are a major reason why Paraguay still exists after the War of the Triple Alliance (which has made him somewhat of a hero to Paraguayans):
Rutherford B. Hayes Is More Famous in Paraguay Than in the U.S.
The 19th U.S. President lends his name to a city, region, school, and annual festival.
I mean, even IOTL Lincoln has been regarded as a leftist icon in certain circles at certain times, and there have definitely been leftist interpretations of the Civil War and reconstruction (mostly because there have been leftist interpretations of pretty much every historical event). I don't think it's unreasonable to think that this might also be true ITTL, although of course the actual degree to which these interpretations are true and popular (not necessarily the same thing, naturally) remains to be seen.
I mean, maybe, but there's certainly a chance that whoever is President at that point then might still interceed.Considering that I doubt Rutherford Hayes would become President ITTL, a minor yet still prominent repercussion for Latin America would be that Paraguay would be even smaller ITTL with how, IIRC, his diplomatic actions are a major reason why Paraguay still exists after the War of the Triple Alliance (which has made him somewhat of a hero to Paraguayans):
Rutherford B. Hayes Is More Famous in Paraguay Than in the U.S.
The 19th U.S. President lends his name to a city, region, school, and annual festival.
I'm afraid my knowledge of Star Wars is limited to knowing Darth Vader is Luke's father.
Rosecrans is, funnily enough, something of a folk hero for the events where he got lost in Texas. We'll see how he fares against Kirby Smith.
I am envisioning something violent indeed, but I don't know enough about the Indian Partition to draw any direct parallels or inspiration from it.
Yeah, there's a lot of simple inertia. It's like, truly, what are you going to do except try and live until the whole thing comes crashing down?
Continuous trouble with guerrillas will indeed be nasty, but it'll draw a direct line between them and Klan terrorists and thus make it very hard for Northerners to ignore them.
You're getting way ahead. Who says I'm not going to change what happens in Europe? At the very least, I believe it's both more logical and interesting for something to change there.
Yeah, the way things moved around those October weeks must have been a completely crazy ride for everyone. Lee's death, the Coup, Breckinridge's execution, all taking place quickly one after the other.
We were actually going to visit Missouri in the next chapter!
That's a good idea for a side-story.
I mean, for all intents and purposes they are already doing so to a degree, sowing terror within Unionist/Dissident communities that resist the draft and impressment. Things will get worse, however.
Yeah, at the end Kirby Smith probably will find himself with what's little more than a small guerrilla band. Even the most committed dead-ender can't fight without food.
Curiously enough, Cleburne's back luck and unfortunate end could make him a more well-known and more sympathetic figure. Like, "did you know this General who wanted to free Black people?" ignoring how he didn't want that out of altruism and envisioned them remaining as serfs.
Reconstruction can probably succeed in Black majority states such as South Carolina, Mississippi, and Alabama, and states with substantial White Unionist populations like Tennessee and North Carolina. It's basically doomed in Texas and Kentucky, and it's hard to see much initial success in Louisiana (always a clusterfuck) or Virginia.
Eh, author notes can be sometimes distracting as a reader, and annoying to implement as a writer. Major things I tend to clarify in later posts, and I'm not really concerned by small things like this one.Only now I remembered learning about this "old-timey" expression. I think you should have used author's notes here, especially when it is used by a notorious racist, so one can actually reasonable assume it is used as a racist insult
Yes, something like that. There are hints of that already, but we'll see solidarity, if only out of survival, appear in many Southern communities as the situation turns desperate.
I did plan on including a scene of Grant inviting Longstreet to play cards, using that same quote, but I couldn't find where to put it, and the idea of writing the whole scene now seems more appealing.
How are you doing now? Again, wish you a speedy recovery!Thanks, recovery is slow but going well.
I think everyone has their own idea of how long streets surrender goes, we have an outline so it is probably easiest to just have some sort of fanfiction about it.
Then, Grant sits down with him in his tent, and Longstreet makes some comment about how he just felt it would look better if he accepted that he could still have honor and yet surrender to a black man. Grant would then tell him that, if he really wanted to get with the program that the Union had, with certain... stipulations being accepted by Longstreet, that his old friend might be able to make himself useful as more than just a prisoner.
In other words, Grant would hint at what Longstreet would need to do to avoid a lengthy sentence, and at the end he would remark that Longstreet had actually done the hardest part already in accepting that he had lost and to whom. " from the sounds of it, james, many of you rascals will never even accept surrender, let alone equality. Because with what we are doing, perhaps they realize that it is inevitable." With Longstreet eventually going on to realize that he should accept the inevitable and fight for the rights of the former slaves.
I wonder what the youngest Soldier will be. The Nazis, continuing with the theme of Downfall parallels, had some as young as their early teens, I don't know if they had any preteens, but there might well be some who are at least trying to guard prisoners as young as 12 or 13.
Grant probably wouldn't dare require anything more than an oath of allegiance in exchange for protection from the Confederates. Stuff like offering immunity from prosecution in exchange of fundamentally political declarations would be probably regarded as something for the civil authorities to decide instead of the military commanders. And, unfortunately, we will see children conscripted indeed.
And we will build upon that
Regarding the idea of sending a skull to Summer... I find it just too morbid and mean spirited. I include violence as an unavoidable consequence of the war and as a reflection of historic atrocities. Not because I find it fun or amusing. So I won't go out of my way to include details like that.
I will say that you and I share many opinions regarding imperialism. Especially a fundamental adversion to saying some colonizer is "better" than another, but at the same time a recognition that the character and ostensible aims of American imperialism ITTL will change, never forgetting that "they built roads and hospitals!" is no justification either. It'll be a complex thing to grapple with...
Kentucky may end up feeling like an "orphan" state too. Like, where do they belong? They were never part of the CSA and their favorite man was killed by the slavers, but at the same time they grew to despise the Union which basically took over in the last year of the war. Reconstruction's prospects are dim, with strong racism plus few true Unionists and a small Black population resulting in staunch resistance to change. But at the same time they may prove resistant to the Lost Cause and pro-Confederate apologia given Breckinridge's fate.
Lee will probably become an extremely controversial character. Who do you believe? The Breckinridgites who swear up and down that Lee was loyal to Breckinridge and would have accept an honorable peace? Or the Juntists who think Lee would have never accepted surrender and would have overthrown Breckinridge himself? I believe Lee's reputation was grand enough that an attempt to rehabilitate him and insist that he was also a "Good Confederate" would be made, and find some success because after all it's hard to link Lee to the Junta when he was, you know, dead when they took power, and due to his genuine friendship with Breckinridge. He'd be basically the Rommel to Breckinridge's Speer. And like Rommel and Speer they would both become less popular with time.
That "Lincoln and Marx were pen-pals" has always been exaggerated a lot, imo... Still, Marx ought to be thrilled about what's going on in the US.
I can see something like that.
Always. It usually doesn't bother me, though.
Labor will be the next great battle. As you note, people will say "if destroying the Southern aristocracy was the right thing to do, why aren't we destroying the Northern aristocracy too? If destroying chattel slavery was right, why aren't we destroying wage slavery?" There is a direct line between Radicalism and Socialism, with radicals like Wade and Butler coming to support labor causes. And greater enfranchisement and power for a fundamentally working class demographic like Black people can only result in a left-ward shift that's going to make many Republicans uncomfortable.
Indeed, especially because it's easy to cheer on this expanded State power when it's used against the slavers, but it can easily be used against labor too. Remember, these laws and organizations like the gendarmerie allow for the use of force against anyone who resists the authority of the United States - and a strike is certainly resisting, isn't it?
Yeah. The overthrow of the old ruling class opens a vacuum in which all sorts of factions want to step in. The Northerners want the new ruling class to be free labor capitalists, but will the common folk stand by that?
By my count there's only 4 updates left before Reconstruction, and I was thinking of creating a new thread for that. So we may yet finish the TL (first part) here
At this point I can say with some confidence that there will be a lot of love for "Comrade Lincoln" within some circles ITTL. Similarly to how the popular conception of Lincoln is the "man who freed the slaves" IOTL, the popular conception here would be "the man who freed the slaves, destroyed the planters, and remade the South." Nuances and blemishes would be lost and leftist would just look at a guy who destroyed a parasitic ruling class through a revolutionary process that radically redistributed the means of production.
You know what, you're both butterflied. It's canon that your ancestors explicitly died.
Next chapter is bound to be cathartic for all of us!
But I don't want Paraguay to disappearConsidering that I doubt Rutherford Hayes would become President ITTL, a minor yet still prominent repercussion for Latin America would be that Paraguay would be even smaller ITTL with how, IIRC, his diplomatic actions are a major reason why Paraguay still exists after the War of the Triple Alliance (which has made him somewhat of a hero to Paraguayans):
Rutherford B. Hayes Is More Famous in Paraguay Than in the U.S.
The 19th U.S. President lends his name to a city, region, school, and annual festival.
Yeah, that's the thing. I believe we can already speculate regarding Lincoln's reputation. For better or worse the aftermath of wars is often ignored in favor of the war itself, so Lincoln in popular culture is likely to only take into account his war-time record. And that looks very attractive to leftists. Now, the TL will of course explore what actually "happened" later on, but my Reconstruction is probably going to take a much less prominent role in popular culture ITTL than my Civil War.
What would be TTL's Confederate equivalent to OTL's 12. SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend"?
Uh, the VMI Cadetes, probably? Or some other kind of hastily assembled militia using children pressed into service on that moment.
Well, Paraguay could still be around in a truncated form, even if it very much would be a shadow of its OTL form and stripped of 60% of its OTL territory, but yeah, the unexpected reprecussions of this TL outside the US like what we've discussed about Paraguay are interesting to ponder.But I don't want Paraguay to disappear
On that note, what would be a good equivalent to how the Volkssturm were often equipped with captured foreign weapons or WW1 rifles (or their Japanese equivalent using bamboo spears) could be how the last Confederate troops were often armed with smoothbore muskets or even pikes (this was an actual OTL Confederate proposal)
That of course assumes he doesn't flee to Mexico like what he did IOTL, with exile very much a common fate for dead-enders who nonetheless recognize the war as lost but still refuse to submit to the Union
On that note, the idea could be around ITTL as a popular myth, even if that won't really happen here.
On this - it's my personal belief, with I think some historical grounding, that some of the tailspin, fragmentation and infighting that plagued the revolutionary left between Napoleon and 1917 was in no small part due to the sheer lack of successful models to point to even as symbolic inspiration after the fall of the Jacobins (and even then their success is a very very qualified success). With Lincoln's administration being both unquestionably revolutionary in nature - if accidentally so - and unquestionably successful under the most strenuous of examinations, I expect "Lincolnism" to be a powerful if conveniently ill-defined force that could well dominate radical left circles in the coming generations. If nothing else I expect the idea that revolutionary progress is waged through the electoral capture of existing regimes and imposed from above by government law, rather than from below by popular uprising, to be very popular.
On that note, the reformist left/social democrats could view Lincoln as a role model for how a reformist movement should advocate peaceful reforms whenever possible but at the same time be prepared to defend their gains from the forces of reaction.
Confederate Congress created the Junior Reserves, a formation of 17-18 year old boys meant to take over rear-area duties. However, towards the end, they were put up to front-line duty as seen in North Carolina. It should be noted that the Junior Reserves seemed to suffer a higher attrition rate than normal, with historian Wade Sokolosky noting that a careful examination showed greater % of sickness and desertion. It is unclear as to why they suffered more from ill health than their older comrades (I'm not a doctor) but it could be a mixture of poor administration and leadership or a lack of nutrition from limited rations.
There was also a more prolific case of boys being used in combat - namely the VMI at New Market as Red_Galiray mentioned and the Georgia militia at Griswoldville. Sherman's troops shot the charging militiamen down en masse and it was not until the fight was over that they found that they had killed old men and young boys, with one wishing they would never fight again.
One of the most WTF quotes I found in the Collapse of the Confederacy was a quote by a newspaper, the Richmond Dispatch, urging Confederate parents to send their boys to the army: "If a Confederate parent now wishes to teach his son the way to live, and the way to die, let him send him... to the bronzed and battle-scarred veterans in the front." This was written without irony.
I mean, Rutherford B. Hayes could still be a major politician, maybe rising to Secretary of State? He did serve as a general, like in the Valley now, and was prone to waving the bloody shirt, which should be more effective ITTL.But I don't want Paraguay to disappear