Unified command for the central powers

[Deleted member 1487]

I am going to try my hand with a WW1 what if and a general timeline to go along with my idea. So in this TL germany and AH decide to take their prewar planning a little further and set up a joint command structure in case war starts to coordinate their armies and general strategy. OTL there were joint planning sessions that were basically ignored once the shooting started. Actually, AH wasn't even aware of the schlieffen plan as was expecting germany to concentrate on russia first! So, I am supposing that in 1909 this united command board is set up and begins to draw up plans for war. AH at this point shows that germany must come to their aid in the event of a war with russia, so the schlieffen plan is scrapped as being impractical. So, with the plan to fight russia being coordinated, the exchange of officers also occurs to increase familiarity between armies and concepts of fighting.

My rough outline of events will be expanded upon later after I have recieved comments and ideas about how to handle the story. So, when war breaks out in 1914, germany only declars war on russia and leaves france to their own devices. Still an army is sent to the border to hold incase of a french DOW. The troops roll east and in conjunction with AH savage the russian armies. In OTL russia was able destroy the AH with easy as their armies were underequiped compared to the russians and while that still is an issue here, they are fighting with most of the german armies who are tying down most of the russian troops. So, with the main fight occuring in russia, the armies in the balkans are defending against serbia who, once they realize that AH isn't attacking them, begins an offensive. These ground to a bloody halt as the AH troops are much better prepared for defence than they were for the abortive attacks in OTL.

France however vacilates on whether or not to declare war. Once russia starts to experience large defeats and begin to look like they are going to lose poland, french generals are able to convince the politicians to declare war. The inital assualts seemingly go well as the germans seem reluctant to give battle. However, when the brightly colored french troops begin to come in contact with the mighty forts in Alsace, the offensive halts. Soon things begin to go very wrong as the bodies begin to pile up. Artillery is unable to penetrate the forts and each attack gains little but more casualties. The famous french 75's are unable to do much against the entrenched germans and the increasingly lengthy bombardments just chew through increasingly scarce ammunition stockpiles. By december the french give up for the year and dig in for the winter. By the end of the year the french have experienced nearly 500,000 casualties. The germans are still mauled as they are heavily outnumbered and take about 80,000 casualties in the west-this affects them more as this falls on one army, while french casualties fall on the entire military.

The situation in the east progresses very favorably for the central powers as poland is overrun quickly and the russian army is heavily attrited. The great retreat takes the russians hundreds of miles back into the motherland as the baltics are mostly abandoned and parts of west ukraine fall to AH. By december the central powers outrun their supply network and have to stop at a similar point to OTL 1916. The russians lick their wounds and mobilize their reserves and steel themselves for a long war. Much of the prewar army has been wiped out, so the quality of the troops drops off making resistance more difficult, but russia is so vast that the russian generals know that the germans will have a hard time managing all the new territory they have gained. This should buy time for the army to prepare and spread out the germans enough to disorganize them.

As 1914 winds down germany has acquired large territories in the east and fought off the french in the west. In the process, the allies have suffered large numbers of casualties. The central powers have still suffered significant losses themselves, but are in a far better condition to retake the offensive. However, with large areas of russia to administer and change the rail gauge in, they have a lot of work to do. AH is much better off as the massive losses to their NCO and officers hasn't take place and the country is united to win the war. Without the massive losses that happened in OTL, the army is much better prepared to continue fighting and as industry ramps up, the equipment deficiency is easing off.



So, what does everyone think? Is this realistic? Where do you think I should go from here?

 

[Kevin in Indy]

Interesting! I'm not real deep on WW I but the Eastern Front looks plausible. I don't know enough about the Kaiser and I don't know how reasonable it is to leave the Western Front on the defensive.

 

[Max Sinister]

Don't forget the Oberst Redl affair: He was blackmailed by the Russians who knew he was gay and forced him to tell them (and other allies like France) all he knew about A-H's military, and quite some things about Germany too. ITTL they'd know even more about Germany.

 

[JHPier]

I don't think France will vacillate though, especially if it is Germany which declares war. In that case the terms of their Russian alliance come into force: if Russia is attacked, France will join it.

You also need to account for Britain. True, without Belgium the Liberals may not declare war. In that case the Irish business kicks in, which very probably will be the end of that cabinet.
In any case Britain was due to have a general election within months, leading in all probability to a Conservative cabinet which will lose no time in jumping into the war.

 

[Max Sinister]

"Within months"... yes, but within months the Germans might've won the "race to the sea", maybe even occupied Calais, and reached Paris.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Yeah, but what about the british people as a whole? Wouldn't they just view it as a continental affair that isn't any of their business? Besides here the French are declaring war on the Germans, not vice versa so they are not going to get nearly as much sympathy. The Brits are not going to be eager to fight, much as the government might be. If the BEF goes over and gets slaughtered in the meat grinder, the conservatives might fall themselves as the war that noone wanted eats up the army. Besides the Brits can make ridiculous amounts of money selling to both sides.

 

[JHPier]

"Within months"... yes, but within months the Germans might've won the "race to the sea", maybe even occupied Calais, and reached Paris.

What "race to the sea"? The original poster presumed Germany remains on the defensive in the West.

 

[JHPier]

Yeah, but what about the british people as a whole? Wouldn't they just view it as a continental affair that isn't any of their business? Besides here the French are declaring war on the Germans, not vice versa so they are not going to get nearly as much sympathy. The Brits are not going to be eager to fight, much as the government might be. If the BEF goes over and gets slaughtered in the meat grinder, the conservatives might fall themselves as the war that noone wanted eats up the army. Besides the Brits can make ridiculous amounts of money selling to both sides.

There's a general election while there's a war on involving the four continental great powers, pitting pro-war Conservatives against anti-war Liberals (to simplify things). So the British people has the opportunity to elect the government that will so what they want, fight or not fight.

I happen to think they will elect to fight. This is still 1914. The European general public were still rather more prepared to go to war than even 4 yrs. later.

 

[Max Sinister]

OK, forgot that. Maybe the Austrians can give the German OHL some sense. If the Germans had defended in the west and attacked in the East, they might've even won without a unified command. BTW, didn't the Allies lack a unified command until 1917 either?

 

[stevep]

There's a general election while there's a war on involving the four continental great powers, pitting pro-war Conservatives against anti-war Liberals (to simplify things). So the British people has the opportunity to elect the government that will so what they want, fight or not fight.

I happen to think they will elect to fight. This is still 1914. The European general public were still rather more prepared to go to war than even 4 yrs. later.

Under this scenario it might well be 1915 at least before such an election. By that time the bloodbath in Europe may well be very well known. Not to mention that Britain would be distracted by the situation in Ireland. Suspect that if Germany looked like it was winning Britain might well vote for war because of the danger but not something I would be confident of.

Steve

 

[stevep]

OK, forgot that. Maybe the Austrians can give the German OHL some sense. If the Germans had defended in the west and attacked in the East, they might've even won without a unified command. BTW, didn't the Allies lack a unified command until 1917 either?

Max

Think it was actually in the spring of 1918 and the crisis of the German offensive that Britain, France and possibly other powers [Belgium, Italy?] formed a unified command in the west.

Steve

 

[MrP]

Max

Think it was actually in the spring of 1918 and the crisis of the German offensive that Britain, France and possibly other powers [Belgium, Italy?] formed a unified command in the west.

Steve

IIRC, the formation was a result of Caporetto. Lemme check. Ah, here we go . . . link.

A unified Allied command in the West was created in Apr., 1918. It was headed by Marshal Foch, but under him the national commanders (Sir Douglas Haig for Britain, King Albert I for Belgium, and General Pershing for the United States) retained considerable authority. The Central Powers, however, had gained new strength through the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Mar., 1918) with Russia. The resources of Ukraine seemed at their disposal, enabling them to balance to some extent the effects of the Allied blockade; most important, their forces could now be concentrated on the Western Front.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Well, despite some disagreements about British involvement, I am going to continue with general developments in the war for early 1915.

The central powers are quickly sobered from their victories over Russia as they come to realize that the Tzar isn't going to negotiate. His armies just withdraw further and preserve themselves for the next round. With much new territory to administer, the central powers spend much of the winter extending the rail networks and improve the overall logistics situation. The Russians are still realing from the openning battles of the war and are not in any shape to conduct any major offensives for some time. The Poles begin agitating for independance, which plays well into german plans for a buffer state between germany and russia. Soon planning begins for a polish legion to serve on the east front. At the conclusion of the war a kingdom of the Poles will be created from russian poland and maybe parts of both germany and AH, but this is kept deliberately vague as neither country wants to give up territory to this new country. So, with minor struggles in russia and the ukraine, the line is generally straightened as both sides prepare for a longer war than anticipated.

In France, the french armies pause over the winter to collect themselves and make good their losses as best they can. Also, with severe ammunition shortages constraining any further offensives, plan 19 is cancelled and the generals go back to the drawing board. Still, large probes are conducted to determine if the germans are about to crack. The french are quick to conclude that the war will continue through the winter. But there still is hope that the Italians might join in against their former allies. However, even though they broke their alliance with the central powers, the Italians are less than willing to join in what they consider to be a very risky operation. The french still continue to make offers though.

Most of the winter is spent reorganizing armies and economies as ammunition shortages abound amongst all combatants. Serbia still is in the game and continues to attack the AH forces in the balkans, but the line doesn't shift much. Soon though, the bulgarians begin to consider joining the sofar victorious central powers as they still covet serb territory and nurse a grudge from the recent balkans war. Plans are discussed but it will be months before negotiations reach fruition. Romania is still aloof despite offers by both sides. They want translyvania, but Russia is in retreat and wouldn't be able to support them. So they continue to bide their time and hope the Germans and AH bleed themselves white in Russia's vastness. The ottomans were for the moment neutral, but with the allies on the outs, it looked increasingly as though they would join in with the central powers. Very late in 1914 they take the plunge and declare for the central powers. This gives Russia another front to worry about, but they are relieved to see the Ottoman campaign in the caucaus region sputter and grind to a halt. The ottomans were badly prepared for the conditions in the mountains and many soldiers freeze to death (much as in OTL). Still the drain on soldiers limits Russia from conducting further attacks for the forseeable future, that is until Russia's manpower can be tapped.

Britain was the last wild card. Although supportive of the allies, the liberals will not declare war, with the home rule issue in Ireland coming to the fore, they focus on the political turmoil this brings. With Turkey's entrance into the war, the conservatives begin to foam at the mouth for British entry, as a central powers victory is becoming more certain and Germany's dream of Mittel Europa seems more and more likely. However, the stories of mass slaughter and hardship coming from france dampens the resolve of many of the bellicose members of parliment. As both sides place orders with British companies for munitions and supplies, many wonder if letting the continentals fight it out amongst themselves might not be worthwhile. So, for the moment, the British remain neutral, but biased.

Major differences: France is much stronger as the industrial north is still intact and the massive losses of OTL haven't happened here. While they are still hurt, the future looks bright and a hard shove might carry them to the Rhine. Russia is worse off as their armies have been hurt quite a bit worse than OTL and the bulk of the central powers have been arrayed against them. However, they still can trade space for time and the entry of the Ottomans isn't nearly as dangerous as feared. The vast manpower pools are intact, but industry is just as bad as OTL.
The germans are doing quite a bit better here as they haven't experienced nearly as bad of casualties as OTL. They do have an intact and mobilizing france to the west and the vastness of Russia ahead in the east. Though things are looking good, there are trouble on the horizon and Russia may be given a chance to recover if things heat up too much in Alsace. AH is doing worlds better here. They extreme losses to the Russians and Serbs hasn't occured here and with the extra attention from the Germans, the quality of their armies and their overall military position is better. The misguided attempt to punish the serbs never happens here and the serbs have been allowed to batter themselves against prepared positions. So, as long as things continue to go well, the AH emperor may get his wish of a victorious war to unite the people of the empire.

Thats all I can think of for the moment. If anyone has objections about what is going on let me know and we may adjust somethings. This is only through about march 1915, so the major action should be starting very soon.

 

[Smaug]

I'd say you need a Revolution in Russia. A little bit of anarchy on the Eastern Front would totally throw everything into anarchy, and I certainly love to see things get all flocked up

 

[stevep]

Well, despite some disagreements about British involvement, I am going to continue with general developments in the war for early 1915.

The central powers are quickly sobered from their victories over Russia as they come to realize that the Tzar isn't going to negotiate. His armies just withdraw further and preserve themselves for the next round. With much new territory to administer, the central powers spend much of the winter extending the rail networks and improve the overall logistics situation. The Russians are still realing from the openning battles of the war and are not in any shape to conduct any major offensives for some time. The Poles begin agitating for independance, which plays well into german plans for a buffer state between germany and russia. Soon planning begins for a polish legion to serve on the east front. At the conclusion of the war a kingdom of the Poles will be created from russian poland and maybe parts of both germany and AH, but this is kept deliberately vague as neither country wants to give up territory to this new country. So, with minor struggles in russia and the ukraine, the line is generally straightened as both sides prepare for a longer war than anticipated.

In France, the french armies pause over the winter to collect themselves and make good their losses as best they can. Also, with severe ammunition shortages constraining any further offensives, plan 19 is cancelled and the generals go back to the drawing board. Still, large probes are conducted to determine if the germans are about to crack. The french are quick to conclude that the war will continue through the winter. But there still is hope that the Italians might join in against their former allies. However, even though they broke their alliance with the central powers, the Italians are less than willing to join in what they consider to be a very risky operation. The french still continue to make offers though.

Most of the winter is spent reorganizing armies and economies as ammunition shortages abound amongst all combatants. Serbia still is in the game and continues to attack the AH forces in the balkans, but the line doesn't shift much. Soon though, the bulgarians begin to consider joining the sofar victorious central powers as they still covet serb territory and nurse a grudge from the recent balkans war. Plans are discussed but it will be months before negotiations reach fruition. Romania is still aloof despite offers by both sides. They want translyvania, but Russia is in retreat and wouldn't be able to support them. So they continue to bide their time and hope the Germans and AH bleed themselves white in Russia's vastness. The ottomans were for the moment neutral, but with the allies on the outs, it looked increasingly as though they would join in with the central powers. Very late in 1914 they take the plunge and declare for the central powers. This gives Russia another front to worry about, but they are relieved to see the Ottoman campaign in the caucaus region sputter and grind to a halt. The ottomans were badly prepared for the conditions in the mountains and many soldiers freeze to death (much as in OTL). Still the drain on soldiers limits Russia from conducting further attacks for the forseeable future, that is until Russia's manpower can be tapped.

Britain was the last wild card. Although supportive of the allies, the liberals will not declare war, with the home rule issue in Ireland coming to the fore, they focus on the political turmoil this brings. With Turkey's entrance into the war, the conservatives begin to foam at the mouth for British entry, as a central powers victory is becoming more certain and Germany's dream of Mittel Europa seems more and more likely. However, the stories of mass slaughter and hardship coming from france dampens the resolve of many of the bellicose members of parliment. As both sides place orders with British companies for munitions and supplies, many wonder if letting the continentals fight it out amongst themselves might not be worthwhile. So, for the moment, the British remain neutral, but biased.

Major differences: France is much stronger as the industrial north is still intact and the massive losses of OTL haven't happened here. While they are still hurt, the future looks bright and a hard shove might carry them to the Rhine. Russia is worse off as their armies have been hurt quite a bit worse than OTL and the bulk of the central powers have been arrayed against them. However, they still can trade space for time and the entry of the Ottomans isn't nearly as dangerous as feared. The vast manpower pools are intact, but industry is just as bad as OTL.
The germans are doing quite a bit better here as they haven't experienced nearly as bad of casualties as OTL. They do have an intact and mobilizing france to the west and the vastness of Russia ahead in the east. Though things are looking good, there are trouble on the horizon and Russia may be given a chance to recover if things heat up too much in Alsace. AH is doing worlds better here. They extreme losses to the Russians and Serbs hasn't occured here and with the extra attention from the Germans, the quality of their armies and their overall military position is better. The misguided attempt to punish the serbs never happens here and the serbs have been allowed to batter themselves against prepared positions. So, as long as things continue to go well, the AH emperor may get his wish of a victorious war to unite the people of the empire.

Thats all I can think of for the moment. If anyone has objections about what is going on let me know and we may adjust somethings. This is only through about march 1915, so the major action should be starting very soon.

Viking

Looks reasonable with one exception. Not sure that either Austria or Germany would be willing to encourage Polish nationalism. As you say they both have territories that any Polish state would want to include. Also the Germans will probably want at least some of the territory themselves, especially if they can get it without too many Poles. Think Poland is too far west to be a real buffer for a victorious Germany. It would just get in the way

On Britain's biased neutrality are there any limitations the government tries to make on what goods are sold to the Central powers? One other point to consider. While in OTL Germany was mainly restricted by the allied blockage, which will not be there in this case, I think the country was also fairly short of foreign exchange. As such it might be fairly limited as to how much it could import. Also, while I think about it, what is happening at sea. The Germans have a much more powerful fleet than either Russia or France. However it lacks range and foreign bases so would expect the French and Russians to dominate the open oceans. However both sides will have to be very careful they don't disrupt neutral shipping. most especially UK and US. A lot might depend on who's sending what where.

The Germans will have problems if they try and advance too deep into Russia. They had enough problems in 41-42 with a partially motorised army with air support and a far more industrialised Russia. In 1914 they will have a larger army in terms of people but markedly worse supplies. Also the Russians will rally to defend the motherland. I would expect the Germans to win if they really push matters in the east but probably a couple of years from getting to Moscow or St Petersburg and a awful lot of casualties on both sides.

Under those circumstances would either side be willing to consider a moderate peace agreement? [Each side probably having different views of what's moderate of course!]

Steve

 

[Chingo360]

Nice and I must admit, interesting depth of analysis

 

[Deleted member 1487]

In OTL there was a polish legion and right now with the two front war, Germany needs to have as many soldiers as possible. There were plans to create a kingdom of poland after the war, so with poland overrun a little more quickly here and the legion come around quicker here as the war in the west is heating up, so the extra manpower is needed to hold the line while the germans send men west.
Britain would of course charge germany more, but they will sell as money is to be made. Germany is not is a place to be picky and needs nitrates. American industry is open though, which will help drive British prices down somewhat.
The high seas fleet is restricted from going after the french, because the brits demand the channel stays demilitarized, but the surface raiders can roam with relative impunity as france is not the naval power britain is. Russia is cutoff from outside aid mostly and the baltic fleet is stuck in harbor.
Japan is licking its chops, considering 'protecting' german pacfic provinces, but I don't know enough about the situation there to decide yet-advice is welcome.

 

[Melvin Loh]

Well, in 1914 there were Austrian gunners attached to the German army who manned the massive 240mm and 305mm Skoda guns to bombard the Belgian forts of Liege and Namur into rubble. Now, WI such A-H participation into the German forces had been more formalised, and WI the likes of Liman von Sanders and German advisors to Turkey and other CP countries were subject to a more systematic c-and-c from Berlin ?

 

[arctic warrior]

Wiking:
Good job. The ideas on Poland would forment sooner in German heads. That would make some of the natives rule themselves and provide troops against the Russians. I think the Russians would try do defend Tallinn to keep the Gulf of Finland open for the Baltic Fleet. A revolution in Russia I guess would need some more casualties, but perhaps in a years time.
The Germans I think would have used any time off, from the decision to go East to prepare defences in Alsace-Lorraine. Bad for the French. With no Allied Blockade they might be able to upgrade the Reserve and Ersatz Corps and units artillery. That would also help a lot in A-L. There would be no u-boat war.
The UK would want to keep the Sea open to trade and would declare the Channel a demilitarized area - except for RN.
With the UK not Allied to France and Russia, Japan would be free in the Pacific. They could go for German Far East possessions, but I think the possibility to carve out a large chunk of Russian Far East would be more interesting, with Russia bleeding to death in the "west".
I think France would have a hard time of tempting Italy to join in the fray.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'm going to steal a few your ideas. Here is the next installment.

After the consolidation of the fronts the occurred during the winter, both sides finish preparing themselves for the battles ahead. The French begin the hostilities with the first of the new offensives. Over the winter new strategies had been divised within the french general staff that called for greater fire support in the attack and due to the losses during the battles of the frontier, the French had the highest number of guns per corp than any other combatant. So, when the new offensives began, they fell harder on the germans than before. Soon the german's theater reserves were used up and the transfer of units west from russia were given priority. The higher compliments of artillery of these units soon managed to overwhelm the french assaults and stop the flood. By the end of the french attack, several fortress complexes were being sieged. German troops were too exhausted to mount reliefs, depriving eastern armies of crucial manpower. The counter attacks occupied most of the wrapped up around the beginning of fall and returned most of Alsace to the germans and left both sides spent. The french had once again recieved the worst of the exchange, but had damaged the german forces enough that any further offensive action was out of the question. The grevious losses that the germans experienced here forced the high command to appoint a commission to devise new defensive tactics to reduce casualties. The west would remain stagnant for the the moment.

The russian front was shaping up to be the decisive theater for the year. After the massive losses suffered during the initial battles and the entry of the ottomans, it appeared that russia was a good shove away from surrender. The germans tried to give that shove in the shape of an offensive up the baltic to st. petersburg. Moltke as convinced that the thrust could end the war. So the germans began as soon as possible. However the supply situation was tenuous and soon an ammunition shortage began hamstringing operations. The russians through soldiers into battle as fast as they could be trained to blunt the attacks. The Tzar became more and more frantic as the germans blasted their way forward. The attacks finally bogged down around tallinn, as the supply situation became to dire to continue forward. Also, the removal of troops to fight in the west began to make itself felt as the frontage per army increased and between the support given to the AH, the germans settled down until more railways could be completed. Rumbling began though, as the huge number of casualties in Russia began to take its toll.

The AH offensives went well as Bulgaria entered the war by April. The AH reserves had been called up and an two extra armies appeared on the Balkans front. The combined armies soon defeated the small nation and captured the majority of the Serb army. Several units managed to fight their way to greece and remained interned for the remainder of the war. Bulgaria was given its spoils and contributed the large portion of the occupying force. A pro-AH dynasty was setup in serbia and several portions of the north were added to AH. With this victory complete by July, a rail link had been opened between the Ottomans and the other central powers. The extra troops this freed up soon began to appear in the ukraine where the spring offensives were already underway. The western portion of ukraine was firmly under AH control and several more defeats were inflicted on the battered russians who retreated further east into ukraine. By this time Romania was firmly neutral as she was surrounded by central powers nations. This also aided her in making the decision to trade enthusiastically with them.

The ottomans started to make progress as the warmer weather began and russian reenforcements began to dry up. Baku finally fell by August and the caucaus front began to roll up into Grozny. But with this advanced Ottoman forces had reached their limit and were forced to stop. Until a logistics network could be set up, the lines would form here.

Japan finally decided to act in the middle east as the germans were advancing into russia. The germans pacific posession were immediately picked up and advances into russia were made. Soon Japan was the new owner of much new land in the pacific and mainland asia. They rightly guessed that the combatants wouldn't be able to project their power into asia and couldn't afford more enemies or fronts. The germans made quiet inquires into selling of these posessions to ligitimize the annexations. They reasoned that there was nothing to be done for now, and the money might come in handy. Russia on the other had was unable to demonstrate the ability to protest the land grab and got nothing.

The British were sharply divided between the hawks and doves. With the irish homerule bill still being decided on by the summer, the conservatives had missed their oppertunity to declare war. The horrors of the trenches had been made know if Britain and the majority of the population wanted nothing to do with it. However, the hawks in parliment were very aware of the consequences of the dominant germany in europe for britain. But without something to motivate the people into going along with the war, nothing was going to drag britain into the fray for the moment.

Italy on the other hand was beginning to consider joining with germany against france. It was clear that AH was not going to part with Tirol without war, and the allies were not winning. Italy began to name its price-corsica, tunisia, and nice. Germany was more than willing to promise anything at france's expense, but Italy wouldn't enter until the germans were ready to devote significant forces to invading france. The germans fumed as they need the help now, but were willing to meet the conditions for help later on.

By the fall, both sides were once again licking their wounds and preparing for another winter of war. With the loss of sebia, russia now had more AH troops than ever occupying more of poland and the ukraine. The baltics had almost completely fallen to the germans and the western border had held. The french were unlikely to mount any large attacks anytime soon. But both sides began to reap the rewards of increasing munition production. Soon the lack of men was made up with greater firepower and much larger production of shells. Orders were placed in both Britain and the US for more guns and shells. Also, the french began testing prototypes of armored vehicles to aid the infantry in smashing through the trenches and fortification in Alsace. New automatic weapons were commissioned and new tactics were tested. The aircorps of all nations began seeing an expansion and new fight wings were formed. The germans began testing a new horrifying form of chemical weapons. The mechanization of war was beginning.