Turtledove's seminal series is often the entryway into alternate history, although it is also a source of criticism in the genre. The idea is decent enough: the Confederacy wins the war, and it goes from there. But it may be the later entries to the series that suffer the worst criticism. To ask a question, where did TL 191 go wrong?
TL 191: Where Did It Go Wrong?
- Thread starter Emperor Norton I
- Start date
Just take his pets hostage and ask him to fit the whole thing in under 700 pages.
(Of course we do not harm the pets.)
(Of course we do not harm the pets.)
Kaiphranos
Donor
I still think How Few Remain is a pretty decent standalone, and the WWI series is fine. I thought it started to go downhill with the American Empire series, and I don't think I ever gave the WWII series a second read.
When it starts to mirror OTL to an unforgivable degree. He doesn't even bother to change a lot of the dates in the WW2 books
I don't think the first is that implausible - it's certainly what the US government feared the most and the CS government hoped for the most.
Agreed on the readability part.
I can see circumstances where Britain and/or France intervenes in the ACW. Low-probability, but not impossible.
However, the particular chain of events he depicts would not remotely have led to British intervention at that time. Britain was having some internal discussions about whether they should talk to France about whether they should propose mediation. Intervention was not even on the cards at that point.
Put more succinctly, to borrow a phrase from the late Alison Brooks, the British government was talking about whether they should talk about talking.
Although, by the way, I don't view implausibility as a deal-breaker for AH novels. They can still be entertaining, so long as they have readability. Which was why I enjoyed How Few Remain, but not so much the main series.
I think the British were far more anti USA then pro CSA. The US in a civil war is a US probably not threatening Canada or the Caribbean. But actually getting involved seems unlikely.
Loved How Few Remain. Intervention is unlikely but not implausible. Signs of his laziness are apparent as Grant of course is a drunk, Schefflin plan, and his repeating things over and over. However it’s a good read and I like the scenes involving Lincoln, Douglass, and the Longstreet and Jackson scenes. The progression of alliances remain the same add divide America into the mix but still ok with me. The 1st war copybof Ww1 is where it begins to loose it for me. While I don’t expect massive butterflies there is almost no change to weapons, tactics, and leadership. All same names with same characteristics Even if born before the POD the world is different and they would have different opportunites, life expierence, that could change their goals or hinder their success. The Empire Series is ok and Setting accounts is just ww2 redux no need to read as you can guess the whole thing. Kind of always wanted a 1 book follow up like Homeward Boumd was to the Worldwar and Colonization books to see how it all evolved but it would just be a US-Germany Cold War book.
I thought the Post-Great War went off base. WW1 was decent, and then it just became opposite day WW2 and space-filling-politicians in the presidency. I think Turtledove ran out of steam in unique ideas. It was basically Confederates win, US gets mad over and over, with the rumor being that's what WW1 was originally intended to be as well. And it felt like it lost sense of its purpose. Did the US-Japanese conflict even really get resolved that much? I can't remember.
When the Kaiser died, and they played Deutschland über alles as anthem, and when he misquoted the fictional book "I sank Roger Campbell" or whatever his name was as "I shot Roger Campbell" I knew he had lost interest ...
The last two books got a bit better, but in the first 2 on WWII I could almost feel the boredom of the author.
Thesalonica is still my favorite by Turtledove
The last two books got a bit better, but in the first 2 on WWII I could almost feel the boredom of the author.
Thesalonica is still my favorite by Turtledove
I think WW1 works because it was the epic climax to the 19th century. After that, it's a lot of "...where do we go with this now?" which ended up as simply inverse versions of the OTL with a little wibbly wobbly change here or there for difference. Frankly, I think the very concept of a WW2 in TL-191 is exactly that.
No - they just swiped at each other, then again in GWII before Japan changes sides and attacks British colonies.
Which IMO was a part of his parallelism. Think about it: you've got three powers in the post-GWII world. Germany, the US, and Japan. Perfect set-up for a parallelistic-TL-191-Cold War. I imagine it'd involve the US and Germany competing for influence, with the US' more Socialistic tendencies providing an ideological basis for the conflict, and with Japan siding with Germany until a US President makes a trip to Tokyo at which point things change...
Actually, instead of WW2, maybe Turtledove should have done the world erupting in a bunch of back and forth Marxist and otherwise revolutions against the backdrop of various social changes in a Depression, and it becomes a head to head of Socialism against Imperialism, the entropy of colonialism and all. And why not the Confederacy falling apart with state by state going its own way, getting scooped up by the emboldened north. I think the problem became it was books about war, each war becoming the big kaboom for the story, and it had to be a boxing match between the US and CS, and that can only happen so much.
Yeah...that could have been really really good. He probably thought it'd be easier to sell his way.
It makes very little sense for the CSA to be a match for the USA after their WWI. Before WWI sure. Canada is there. The Royal Navy is around. A CSA that is slightly more than half as strong as the US but with allies that sort of surround the US could be a threat.
But even if the US allowed the CSA to regain their military (unlikely) Canada is gone. Yes keeping that under arms wouldn't be cheap but hey Quebec is sort of friends. And I find it very doubtful that the UK would get involved in a sea battle with the USN from Newfoundland (I think they stayed independent since how the fuck would the USN conquer that island?). So yes a lot of 19 year old with rifles might be in Canada but the barrel and planes would be relatively light.
Also why is Japan fighting the US? The US is not in the Philippines. Their Pacific presence other than Hawaii is pretty light. Heck switch sides and attack the French and UK during WWI and steal some of their territory. Germany and this US isn't really going to care much about what Japan is doing in China and Germany would LOVE a medium power who is opposed to Russia as allies (call it a lucky guess here). If Germany and Japan had any "hey we want this island' disagreements I think Berlin would be willing to give in fairly easily. Again what is there other than Hawaii to take from the US and German alliance? I understand that Japan and the UK sort of had an alliance in OTL but friends with Russia?
And lastly why did the US take Hawaii anyway? To put themselves into conflict with Japan? This US was not in the "banana republic" sugar plantation business like real US was. Any attempt to strong arm Latin America countries (yes I know Hawaii is not in Latin America) would be stopped by the CSA and more importantly the UK. It just seems to me that this USN would be smaller and with a lot less battleships. Submarines, destroyers, and cruisers sure they would be useful to harass shipping to Canada and the CSA. But battleships? And more to the point would this USN have the logistical skill to force the UK out of The Sandwich Islands? TL-191 USN is not much of a blue water force.
But even if the US allowed the CSA to regain their military (unlikely) Canada is gone. Yes keeping that under arms wouldn't be cheap but hey Quebec is sort of friends. And I find it very doubtful that the UK would get involved in a sea battle with the USN from Newfoundland (I think they stayed independent since how the fuck would the USN conquer that island?). So yes a lot of 19 year old with rifles might be in Canada but the barrel and planes would be relatively light.
Also why is Japan fighting the US? The US is not in the Philippines. Their Pacific presence other than Hawaii is pretty light. Heck switch sides and attack the French and UK during WWI and steal some of their territory. Germany and this US isn't really going to care much about what Japan is doing in China and Germany would LOVE a medium power who is opposed to Russia as allies (call it a lucky guess here). If Germany and Japan had any "hey we want this island' disagreements I think Berlin would be willing to give in fairly easily. Again what is there other than Hawaii to take from the US and German alliance? I understand that Japan and the UK sort of had an alliance in OTL but friends with Russia?
And lastly why did the US take Hawaii anyway? To put themselves into conflict with Japan? This US was not in the "banana republic" sugar plantation business like real US was. Any attempt to strong arm Latin America countries (yes I know Hawaii is not in Latin America) would be stopped by the CSA and more importantly the UK. It just seems to me that this USN would be smaller and with a lot less battleships. Submarines, destroyers, and cruisers sure they would be useful to harass shipping to Canada and the CSA. But battleships? And more to the point would this USN have the logistical skill to force the UK out of The Sandwich Islands? TL-191 USN is not much of a blue water force.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Taking Newfoundland should be fairly easy for the USN, the vast majority of the RN heavies are going to be staying in the North Sea to watch the HSF. If the RN built as many battleships as OTL it would be all of them, assuming they built more, they might free up some, but to the RN the North Sea is 1st priority, unless the RN is more than 50% larger than OTL in battleships, a single USN battle squadron and escorts should suffice to escort a Newfoundland invasion
The USN would want a lot of battleships, and given that the Union States in 1914 have both a higher population and a higher GDP/Capita than Germany, the US could afford a larger than High Seas Fleet sized force and an equivalent to the German Army at the same time. And having two thirds of that that as a fleet in being in the Atlantic would strain the RN's ability to punch troops convoys through to Canada, as they have to escort very heavily. Destroyers don't harass blue water shipping, as they lack range and seaworthiness, and no one prior to WWI conceived of the sub (also short ranged at this time) as anything but a defensive tool
As for taking Hawaii, flank protection for the sea-route to Chile and their Saltpeter, which until 1914 (and the Haber process) is absolutely a do or die in any war over 6 months, escorting against CSA's light units is easy, escorting against RN heavies out of Hawaii would wear the PacFleet out fast. Logistics are difficult admittedly
I have fond memories of the first two Great War books. And I was interested in the first book of the post-Great War series, but after that... I think everything ramping up to AH WW2 was awkward, as was the war itself.