Thoughts about the conclusions this thesis draws on the plausibility of Mongol conquest of Europe?

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I argue that the evidence suggest that the events of 1241- 1242 could easily have coursed down a different path.

A Mongol detachment was actually seen at Udine in Italy, eighty kilometers from Venice, during the invasion. The purpose for their expedition into Italy is not certain, but this detachment is thought to have been part of Kadan’s army which had pursued Bela to the Adriatic coast. As such, the Mongols had found a fairly accessible route by which to enter Italy from the east. This force quickly disappeared. Yet what if it had conducted a more thorough reconnaissance or raid into Italy? What if Kadan, having failed to capture Bela, decided to follow this detachment in order to test Italy’s defenses? Had a Mongol force approached the walls of Rome or another significant city, they likely would not have succeeded in their assaults. However, as Paul E. Chevedden mentions, counterweighted trebuchets existed in Italy at the time. Emperor Frederick II sent some of these machines from Italy to the Levant in 1242. If this Mongol detachment had rapidly advanced through Italy, they might well have chanced across a poorly protected settlement or even a detachment of troops with a counterweighted trebuchet in their possession. If they managed to capture one of these weapons, and recognized its utility, they could have returned to Batu’s main army with it in their possession.

The atomistic resistance which was troubling Batu would not have immediately ceased and in all likelihood the withdrawal [from Hungary IOTL following Ogedei's death] would have proceeded as it did. However, Rogerius mentions that the artillery specialists in the Mongol army did not simply operate siege engines. They built them from scratch out of local materials. Before besieging Esztergom, for instance, they had stopped nearby and built thirty machines. If these artillery specialists had left Europe with even a single counterweighted trebuchet in their possession, there is no reason to believe they could not have used it as a template for their future constructions. In their continued suppression of the Alans and Saxi, mentioned by Carpini, they would have realized that they now had a huge technological advantage which they did not possess during the first invasion. This likely would have encouraged Batu to attempt a second invasion in the following years, seeing as the counterweighted trebuchet offered him a better chance of reducing the individual fortifications and parity with the best artillery in Europe. We know that the Mamluks were able to reduce the Crusader strongholds of the Holy Land quite rapidly after these weapons appeared in their arsenal. They were also decisive against the Song at Xiangyang and Fancheng.

A renewed invasion of Hungary with counterweighted trebuchets could have broken the will of both Bela and his people to resist. In 1250, Bela specifically warned the pope that in the case of a renewed invasion, he was uncertain that his people would have the desire to continue their resistance. More ominously, he suggested that if he did not receive real support from the Latin West, then he wished to apologize beforehand that he “would see it necessary to come to an agreement with the Tartars.” Thus, it is not implausible to imagine that if the Mongols returned to Hungary before he could launch his castle building program, armed with the very artillery that the Latin West should have used for the defense of his kingdom, Bela might have offered his submission. Isolated and betrayed, he would have felt that it was the only opportunity for the survival of Hungary, and Batu, recognizing that he was in need of local support to conquer Europe, would have welcomed the gesture. Upon meeting, the Mongol chieftain would probably have offered Bela a cup of kumis, as he did when Danilo of Galicia came to offer his submission. He would likely have uttered the same haunting words: “Get used to this drink. You are a Mongol now.”

In the scenario that Batu had a reliable base in Hungary, its entire population producing the foodstuffs and weaponry for a prolonged war, Europe’s long-term prospects for survival would have been bleak. Bela would have set a dangerous precedent by showing that European monarchs could be made to turn their back on Christendom. His crossbowmen and heavily armoured knights would enhance the capability of the Mongol army to conduct a European war. Moreover, the real knowledge of Europe’s geography and political structure that Bela could provide would be decisive. I do not know if the Mongols would have conquered all of Europe, but without doubt the struggle would not be passed over in a few paragraphs in any monograph on the history of Europe. The name of Batu would have seared itself into the collective consciousness of the West like another Attila the Hun.
Thoughts?
 
Seems unrealistic to me, at least the part with the apostasy, how many times did it happen in history with Christian kings, especially not towards Islam or previous religions?
 
These are cool technical details about which I did not know, but I still maintain that above all, Jochi Ulus needs a secure rear and flank (and maybe even real support from the rest of the Empire). Inter-Mongol fighting drained all momentum out of their late-13th c. operations.
 
Link
I argue that the evidence suggest that the events of 1241- 1242 could easily have coursed down a different path.

A Mongol detachment was actually seen at Udine in Italy, eighty kilometers from Venice, during the invasion. The purpose for their expedition into Italy is not certain, but this detachment is thought to have been part of Kadan’s army which had pursued Bela to the Adriatic coast. As such, the Mongols had found a fairly accessible route by which to enter Italy from the east. This force quickly disappeared. Yet what if it had conducted a more thorough reconnaissance or raid into Italy? What if Kadan, having failed to capture Bela, decided to follow this detachment in order to test Italy’s defenses? Had a Mongol force approached the walls of Rome or another significant city, they likely would not have succeeded in their assaults. However, as Paul E. Chevedden mentions, counterweighted trebuchets existed in Italy at the time. Emperor Frederick II sent some of these machines from Italy to the Levant in 1242. If this Mongol detachment had rapidly advanced through Italy, they might well have chanced across a poorly protected settlement or even a detachment of troops with a counterweighted trebuchet in their possession. If they managed to capture one of these weapons, and recognized its utility, they could have returned to Batu’s main army with it in their possession.

The atomistic resistance which was troubling Batu would not have immediately ceased and in all likelihood the withdrawal [from Hungary IOTL following Ogedei's death] would have proceeded as it did. However, Rogerius mentions that the artillery specialists in the Mongol army did not simply operate siege engines. They built them from scratch out of local materials. Before besieging Esztergom, for instance, they had stopped nearby and built thirty machines. If these artillery specialists had left Europe with even a single counterweighted trebuchet in their possession, there is no reason to believe they could not have used it as a template for their future constructions. In their continued suppression of the Alans and Saxi, mentioned by Carpini, they would have realized that they now had a huge technological advantage which they did not possess during the first invasion. This likely would have encouraged Batu to attempt a second invasion in the following years, seeing as the counterweighted trebuchet offered him a better chance of reducing the individual fortifications and parity with the best artillery in Europe. We know that the Mamluks were able to reduce the Crusader strongholds of the Holy Land quite rapidly after these weapons appeared in their arsenal. They were also decisive against the Song at Xiangyang and Fancheng.

A renewed invasion of Hungary with counterweighted trebuchets could have broken the will of both Bela and his people to resist. In 1250, Bela specifically warned the pope that in the case of a renewed invasion, he was uncertain that his people would have the desire to continue their resistance. More ominously, he suggested that if he did not receive real support from the Latin West, then he wished to apologize beforehand that he “would see it necessary to come to an agreement with the Tartars.” Thus, it is not implausible to imagine that if the Mongols returned to Hungary before he could launch his castle building program, armed with the very artillery that the Latin West should have used for the defense of his kingdom, Bela might have offered his submission. Isolated and betrayed, he would have felt that it was the only opportunity for the survival of Hungary, and Batu, recognizing that he was in need of local support to conquer Europe, would have welcomed the gesture. Upon meeting, the Mongol chieftain would probably have offered Bela a cup of kumis, as he did when Danilo of Galicia came to offer his submission. He would likely have uttered the same haunting words: “Get used to this drink. You are a Mongol now.”

In the scenario that Batu had a reliable base in Hungary, its entire population producing the foodstuffs and weaponry for a prolonged war, Europe’s long-term prospects for survival would have been bleak. Bela would have set a dangerous precedent by showing that European monarchs could be made to turn their back on Christendom. His crossbowmen and heavily armoured knights would enhance the capability of the Mongol army to conduct a European war. Moreover, the real knowledge of Europe’s geography and political structure that Bela could provide would be decisive. I do not know if the Mongols would have conquered all of Europe, but without doubt the struggle would not be passed over in a few paragraphs in any monograph on the history of Europe. The name of Batu would have seared itself into the collective consciousness of the West like another Attila the Hun.
Thoughts?

I would argue it's unlikely. The problem with any Mongol Conquest of Europe is how do you manage an empire with vastly different forms of government between it. The former Kievan Rus was divisive enough for the Mongols enough to appoint a Yarlik to gather taxes from each principality, and appoint one of those principalities to do. Those same principalities took part in the power struggles of the Golden Horde. Any theoretical conquests risk the same problems but instead of the loose confederation of the Kievan Rus, the Golden Horde would have to deal with larger more centralized states taking part in its succession struggles which were almost constant.

Which would lead to another problem how do you fix the Golden Horde to have a more stable succession, you can count the number of khans who at reigned for 10 years unopposed on one hand. No amount of conquests can fix a fundamentally unstable government.
 
Counterweight trebuchets had been used in Europe and the Levant for at least 150 years so I find it unlikely that the Mongols didn't encounter them before Italy. And knowing their ability to incorporate new weapons technology and employ local experts it seems more likely that they valued the mobility that smaller siege weapons gave compared to the huge investment in technical and physical resources and time of large trebuchets. After all, large trebuchets were used by the Mongols extensively in 1268 when they laid siege to Fancheng and Xiangyang in China.
 
Yes, it would really surprise me if the Mongols had never encountered counterweight trebuchets before - I thought they had been invented in China! If I'm wrong about that, though, and they were only found in Europe and the Levant, then perhaps they had never encountered them before, since, they didn't invade the Levant until well after Europe.

Still, I would argue that Western Europe would be a fairly tough conquest - doable if they were as determined about it as, say, they were about conquering Sung China, but Sung China was richer and more populous.

A lot of nasty raids and temporary conquests that sear themselves into the collective consciousness of Europe as a terrifying time? That I can definitely see happening.
 
Yes, it would really surprise me if the Mongols had never encountered counterweight trebuchets before - I thought they had been invented in China! If I'm wrong about that, though, and they were only found in Europe and the Levant, then perhaps they had never encountered them before, since, they didn't invade the Levant until well after Europe.

Still, I would argue that Western Europe would be a fairly tough conquest - doable if they were as determined about it as, say, they were about conquering Sung China, but Sung China was richer and more populous.

A lot of nasty raids and temporary conquests that sear themselves into the collective consciousness of Europe as a terrifying time? That I can definitely see happening.
I'm fairly sure Europe and Song China(after they lost the North) had about the same population at this time, heck China had 110 million at their peak(apparently), and quite a lot of them lived in the North while Europe had 70 million.
 
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Yes, it would really surprise me if the Mongols had never encountered counterweight trebuchets before - I thought they had been invented in China! If I'm wrong about that, though, and they were only found in Europe and the Levant, then perhaps they had never encountered them before, since, they didn't invade the Levant until well after Europe.

Trebuchets were possibly invented in China but were refined and increased to epic proportions in European and Levant warfare. The massive building-sized siege engines we recognize would have been unknown in China until the the Mongol introduction in the 1260's which makes me wonder about the comparative virtues of Chinese vs European/Levant fortifications.

It would definitely be interesting to see how the Mongol army would deal with some of the larger European fortifications built to withstand years of siege. The Mongol advantage in mobility may have been tied down significantly considering Europe seems to have a castle or walled town on every good sized hill.
 
Did Trebuchets really just destroy fortifications like people make it seem? I mean they surely help in sieges but this is not artillery.
 
Did Trebuchets really just destroy fortifications like people make it seem? I mean they surely help in sieges but this is not artillery.

Apparently, yes. During the siege of Xiangyang trebuchets were used to destroy the city's Drum Tower and defensive positions along the walls and it's reported that a shot that hit the ground had enough energy to drive several feet into the earth. Warwolf, the largest trebuchet ever built leveled a large section of Stirling Castle's walls in Scotland. And the Mongols certainly thought so. When one of the Persian engineers who built Kubla Khan's trebuchets died he was given full honors. Reportedly trebuchets were also used to batter down the walls of Baghdad but I can't find a source for that.

But they also functioned much like artillery. At Xiangyang under the cover of trebuchet fire the city moats were filled in. An experiment in Toronto in the 1990's found a rate of fire of 4 shots per minute could be achieved and reportedly at the Siege of Lisbon two trebuchets together managed to fire a shot every fifteen seconds (although I'm not sure how they measured that).
 
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