The Whale has Wings

Status
Not open for further replies.
It depends on what the comparison is made to. Relative to a first world railway net, what's in French North Africa isn't very good, but for colonial ones, they are.

Then perhaps what happened OTL was just a quick repair job to bring FNWA up to First World standards to handle the heavy demands of all those forces concentrated there for the invasions of Sicily, Italy, and Southern France...?:confused:
 
Finally caught up! Astrodragon, I freely admit most of the historical and technical details here have been over my head:eek:. I really only know about the Pacific War, and even then only about the aspects of the war between Japan and the US. But I love what you've done so far.:):):)
 
It depends on what the comparison is made to. Relative to a first world railway net, what's in French North Africa isn't very good, but for colonial ones, they are.

I'd assumed that since it was handling things like the iron ore trade that the rail lines were fairly good - you cant run things like ore trains on ramshakle tracks.
In any case, the additional load isnt going to be huge - the bulk stuff wont unload, it will carry on to Alex or the canal. Basing one of the British Corops in Tunis/Tripoli means it gets supplies and equipment via rail, as do the French, so the additional load on the rail net isnt massive.
 
The issue of where the US carriers are is going to get contentious.
At the moment, its as OTL - some supporting the fleet in the Pacific, some supporting AS work in the Atlantic.

Now they dont need them as much in the Atlantic TTL, as the number of CVE and conversions is rising steadily. The issue is, is the USN actually learning from the USN? They have observers (and probably even a few 'Canadian' officers, but will they listen??

They didnt in OTL regarding the AS tecniques (thankyou Admiral King:(), so will they absorb the lessons of the need for heavy strikes and probbaly pairing up carriers?? The USN, at its top levels, had a definate fatal case of head-up-ass before WW2, they were real masters of it...
 
20th July


Generals Wavell, Blamey and O'Connor arrive in London for discussions on the future of operations in the Mediterranean and the Far East. While the plans for operations in the Med are not contentious, and the situation for the next six months seen as readily achievable, there is far more concern about the Far East.

Blamey has discussed the Slim-Park report with Menzies, who is seriously upset. It seems like little that was planned had been done, and there are serious issues to be addressed. Blamey agrees, but points out that Wavell feels that the situation is by no means remedial, and that the recent successes in the Mediterranean theatre will allow much to be done. The discussions go on for some days. Churchill is reluctant to send too much East, however it is pointed out that after all, he's happy to send equipment to Russia, who was an enemy up until a few weeks ago. Menzies also points out that early and substantial forces being sent east, with more to follow, would be very beneficial to the Australian political issues and encourage Australia to do more to help the war effort.

The argument is decided by the views of the Chiefs of Staff, who surprisingly are in favour, particularly the RN and Army. Their arguments are as follows.

The actions possible in the Med by the Army are currently limited by the availability of landing craft and associated ships. A large scale operation is impossible before next spring due to the available numbers. So the troops cannot be used except in small numbers. Eighth Army is more than large enough at the present to cover contingencies, as anything more than a raid on North Africa is well beyond the Axis at present. While the situation in Russia may change and allow Germany to bring more pressure on the Middle East, this isn't going to happen suddenly, and with the action in Ethiopia basically over they have troops there available to be redeployed. The Army therefore suggests that I Australia Corps be sent to Malaya, and the armoured brigade enlarged to a full division (as already planned). There are already two divisions in Malaya, although they both require considerable training. An additional British division would be useful, and politically important to show Britain was defending with its own men, not just Imperial troops.

In Burma, at least one and preferably two more divisions are needed, as well as more armour. They suggest a good Indian division and one of the two African divisions soon to be available in East Africa. Again, the existing troops are in need of training, and sending experienced formations allows them to be given the intensive training they require.

The Navy is actually all in favour of sending carriers at least to the Far East. This is partly due to their current shortage of pilots, which they expect to weaken their air groups for some 4-6 months, due to the intensive effort they have put into Mediterranean operations. Deploying 2-3 carriers to Ceylon will allow them to use them to train up new air groups to full efficiency in a relatively safe area. The remaining four fleet carriers will allow one to be in refit, one in the Western Med, able to cover the Atlantic at short notice if required, and two in the Mediterranean fleet for operations against Italy and in support of the Dodecanese operations. It would be easy to move one of these east if necessary. As to battleships, they have no need of more in the Med, and moving 3-4 east again allows them to be used to work up in quiet. They point out that if anything happens it is easy for them to pull these ships back into the Med, and indeed the same applies to the Army divisions.

The RAF is more reluctant to send too much east, as it is still foreseeing a heavy commitment in the North Sea and the Med, as well as increasing raids over Germany. The Australian production will not really start to feed in until the end of the year. However the Dowding report did recommend a higher commitment, and so do the defence plan for the area. They agree they can spare some squadrons of Sparrowhawks and Beaufighters until the Australian production line comes on stream, but they dig in their heels over Wellingtons.

The Navy wants more air assets for use at sea, given the strength of Japanese air power; they offer to supply three squadrons of Cormorants and three of SeaLance (including some radar planes), although they will need to borrow RAF pilots. They suggest more Hudsons can be acquired from the USA, and a reconnaissance squadron would be most useful in the area. Again, these squadrons can be relocated to the Middle East in case of emergency,

The final needs are for improvements in support. Air Marshal Park has already pointed out that the radar and air defence organisation in both Malaya and Burma is quite inadequate and will led to misuse and inefficiency. There are also Naval issues, as now the Japanese are much closer to Singapore they wish to use it only as a forward base, making Ceylon their main centre of operations. They would also like at least one northern Australian port improved as a base for submarine operations.

Menzies is delighted with the suggestions, and points out that this will allow him to go home and point out the success of his working with Britain - he is sure he will be able to use this to get Australia to also increase her forces available to defend the area.
It is agreed that the CoS recommendations be accepted (subject to material limitations), and arrangements will be made to move I Australian Corps east as soon as shipping is available. The Navy will look at deploying the battleships and carriers as soon as they can get them ready (they wish to do a minor refit on some of the ships before they leave), but submit that the first heavy ships will be on their way before the end of August.

RAF squadrons can be deployed all the way by air now that North Africa is cleared (although fighters may still need to be shipped as far as Gibraltar). One of the points Parks made was inadequate support and maintenance for the RAF, and as a start a base in eastern Indian will be prepared to be the end point of the air route, before the planes are deployed to active squadrons. The RAAF Beaufighter squadron in the Med will be sent out as soon as a replacement squadron can be supplied from Britain, and the new Med convoy route will make the supply of stores and equipment far easier.
In reality it will take longer than estimated to get the formations and their support in place, but it is seen as important to have the process underway; Menzies because of the political bonus it will give him, the British because they are hoping that the scale of the force will make the Japanese think twice about any offensive action.

Unfortunately they do not realise that due to the oil and resource squeeze forced on Japan by the USA, the Japanese decisions have already been made, and it is too late for British action to change them.


24th July


The Japanese government presented an ultimatum (decided in the Japanese Imperial Conference on July 2)to the Vichy government of French Indo-China on the 19th, demanding bases in southern Indochina. Vichy has conceded today, and the Japanese will begin to occupy these bases on the 28th. This is viewed with great concern in Britain and Australia as this will move Japanese aircraft into much closer range of Malaya and Borneo. The action is also denounced by the American government.


25th July


In response to the Japanese takeover of FIC, the British government announces that 'considerable' Imperial forces will be sent to SE Asia over the next months.
With the Grand Harbour unusually filled with merchant ships from a newly-arrived convoy, high-speed Italian motor boats, their bow packed with high explosive, made a reckless attack at night. Fifteen Italians died when their MTL's came under fire from harbour defences manned by the Royal Malta Artillery. The attack had been planned for months.

One group of "frogmen" would blow up a hindrance net suspended from a bridge to all the MTLs access to the harbour. The MTL pilots would race down the harbour and aim their exploding boats at ships before diving over their sterns.

The plan almost worked, except that one of the Italians, Major Tesei, blew up the bridge and himself, blocking access to the MTLs, which found themselves helpless under the guns and floodlit by harbour searchlights.

This attack will be followed tomorrow night by Italian E-boats, who make an attempt to penetrate Grand Harbour and Marsamxett and destroy ships in harbour and the submarine base at Manoel Island. What the Italians do not realise is that the harbour is civered by radar, and the boats are engaged by guns from St Elmo and Ricasoli. The force wiped out, with eighteen Italians being taken prisoner.

War and Naval Departments send a message to the Pacific commanders advising them that the President was going to close the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping and would freeze all Japanese assets in the US, and those of banks situated in Japanese occupied China. The commanders were advised to “guard against possible eventualities”.
The cruiser HMS Newcastle intercepts the German ship 'Erlangen' in the South Atlantic, which leads to the ship scuttling herself.
 
2 Questions.
1 Will the Australian Corps be replaces (protem) by I Canadian Corps
2 Will we eventually see a 1st Australian field Army?
 
2 Questions.
1 Will the Australian Corps be replaces (protem) by I Canadian Corps
2 Will we eventually see a 1st Australian field Army?

(1) Not yet, they dont need more troops in the Med yet
(2) Probably not, except administratively, the actions in SE Asia and the Pacific arent that large.
 
Australia doesn't have the population base to realistically deploy a full field army except possibly by pooling all Australian continental units into a single formation.
 
Astrodragon, You have mentioned Sterlings and Wellington bombers for the RAF so far. Are you teasing us? What are you hiding in the Hanger for winter 1941?:). Mancheste'rs with Fairy P24 engines Prehaps;) or upgraded Sterlings with the same engine (OTL Shorts did propose at least two upgrades to the MoAP) or even my favourite, the Miles X plane:D.
 
Last edited:
Astrodragon, You have mentioned Sterlings and Wellington bombers for the RAF so far. Are you teasing us? What are you hiding in the Hanger for winter 1941?:). Mancheste'rs with Fairy P24 engines Prehaps;) or upgraded Sterlings with the same engine (OTL Shorts did propose at least two upgrades to the MoAP) or even my favourite, the Miles X plane:D.

There are a number of new planes and weapons coming into service for both the FAA and the RAF over the next 6 months :) :)
 
The issue of where the US carriers are is going to get contentious.
At the moment, its as OTL - some supporting the fleet in the Pacific, some supporting AS work in the Atlantic.

Now they dont need them as much in the Atlantic TTL, as the number of CVE and conversions is rising steadily. The issue is, is the USN actually learning from the USN? They have observers (and probably even a few 'Canadian' officers, but will they listen??

They didnt in OTL regarding the AS tecniques (thankyou Admiral King:(), so will they absorb the lessons of the need for heavy strikes and probbaly pairing up carriers?? The USN, at its top levels, had a definate fatal case of head-up-ass before WW2, they were real masters of it...

Astrodragon

One typo here. I think there will probably be some not invented here syndrome but that possibly the lower level people working with the RN will be more aware and willing to learn and so could possibly do something unofficially at their own levels. Also the fact the RN is significantly more successful in TTL is likely to mean what it does gets more attention. Losses in the N Atlantic are still heavy but possibly but about now seem to be coming under control and the devastating successes against the Axis surface fleets will rub off in a general high opinion.

Going to be very difficult not just with the carriers but also the battle-line and supporting units. If FDR still sends the Pacific fleet to Pearl then it might be reinforced by other units from the Atlantic. After all I doubt even the most extreme Anglophobe will be talking about a RN descent on the eastern ports and there's very little else to threaten the US apart from the subs. Neither battleships nor [non-escort] carriers should be anywhere near active sub zones when there's no reason so it could be argued that the Atlantic fleet might be reduced to say 3-4 of the older BBs.

Not trying to set up the US for a worse Pearl, especially since I'm not sure the KB could do worse damage simply by being given more targets. Just saying, if Japan is the only realistic threat and FDR is 'concerned' enough about Japan's behaviour to send the Pacific fleet to Pearl it would seem logical that they might consider sending even more.

Another possibly factor, if the two powers are talking about the possibility of a Japanese attack. They will see SE Asia as the crucial point of conflict. [Since that's where the resources the Japanese need are and since I wonder if even the RN carrier people will expect a Japanese attack on Pearl]. Coupled with the fact that TTL Britain can bring something to the table I wonder if there might be at least some discussion of possible joint co-operation in SEA? After all there were attempts OTL for the defence of Java but that was just with the local Dutch units and the broken remnants of what Britain and the US Asiatic fleet could put into the area in time. Just wondering if any subtraction from the Atlantic fleet could be a US squadron send on a friendship tour of the Indian Ocean and do some practice work with the British/Australian forces in the region. It would possibly be seen as a suitable political message to Tokyo amongst other places. Could be that something like this occurs or is planned but either before or after ~ Dec 41 but there might be something the US could put into a battle for the Malayan barrier, say a carrier and squad of cruisers along with escorts?

I would rule out any significant expansion of the USN Asiatic fleet in Manila, at least of capital ships. Apart from the logistics of supporting them they would be far, far too vulnerable, especially with what the RN has shown can be done to ships in port in range of [potential] enemy carrier forces.

Steve
 
Last edited:
Superb timeline.

With the serious beefing up of BE forces in the Far East the plans for the planned extension of the "Southern Prosperity Sphere" are going to require some thought.

As is always argued here the opposition do not do sit back and follow OTL/do nothing/act like fools to changes....

Looking forward to reading more soon
 
I'd assumed that since it was handling things like the iron ore trade that the rail lines were fairly good - you cant run things like ore trains on ramshakle tracks.

Having looked some more, the problems were capacity based. The signalling wasn't designed for large volumes of trains to be run and the yard capacity to keep large numbers of locomotives running weren't there.

In any case, the additional load isnt going to be huge - the bulk stuff wont unload, it will carry on to Alex or the canal. Basing one of the British Corops in Tunis/Tripoli means it gets supplies and equipment via rail, as do the French, so the additional load on the rail net isnt massive.

Well, I can see an argument for high value material and troops to be unloaded so as to avoid the Straits of Sicily. I also wouldn't want to send high value fast merchant ships through there either.

There are also Naval issues, as now the Japanese are much closer to Singapore they wish to use it only as a forward base, making Ceylon their main centre of operations.

This is a going to cause major political fallout, as it basically invalidates the entire Imperial strategy for containing Japan. The inter-war investment in "Fortress Singapore" was truly enormous - the facilities required to support the fleet they are planning on sending there essentially don't exist anywhere else in the British Empire east of Alexandria. From what I can gather, they can't base the fleet they're talking about to Ceylon, as it can't cope with that many capital ships.

They would also like at least one northern Australian port improved as a base for submarine operations.

The other option I suspect they'll pursue is to take inspiration from the German u-boat pens and upgrade the submarine facilities at Singapore to resist attack from the air.
 
The Japanese are indeed going to have a major dilemma shortly when menzies announces the reinforcements and feelt thats going to head East (or at least some of it...:)

They are pretty much comitted now, they cant even bring things forward much, they have to get entrenched in FIC and get the final two carriers ready for PH.

The RN may be thinking in terms of defending against a carrier strike on Singapore, which is why they are now looking at it as a forward base (main base will be in Ceylon), and why they are unhappy about the report on radar defences. Park is going to be busy kicking ass in SE Asia for a while...:)

The big problem for the IJN, one which probably no-one knows the answer to, is can their long ranged land planes allow them to convoy down tne coast of Thailand/Malaya?? Even if they cant, they can use Thailand more, but it will probably be slower. And time plays into the hands of the British and USA.

As to ABDA - there is going to be a change once the main British force arrives. Given its size, they are going to argue that the Dutch should be part of it - the USA may (unofficially) agree, officially they wont...SO by the time it all goes critical, at least they have a little experience working together. in OTL it was always going to be an issue as no party had sufficient force to be th eobvious 'leader'.
 
Having looked some more, the problems were capacity based. The signalling wasn't designed for large volumes of trains to be run and the yard capacity to keep large numbers of locomotives running weren't there.



Well, I can see an argument for high value material and troops to be unloaded so as to avoid the Straits of Sicily. I also wouldn't want to send high value fast merchant ships through there either.



This is a going to cause major political fallout, as it basically invalidates the entire Imperial strategy for containing Japan. The inter-war investment in "Fortress Singapore" was truly enormous - the facilities required to support the fleet they are planning on sending there essentially don't exist anywhere else in the British Empire east of Alexandria. From what I can gather, they can't base the fleet they're talking about to Ceylon, as it can't cope with that many capital ships.



The other option I suspect they'll pursue is to take inspiration from the German u-boat pens and upgrade the submarine facilities at Singapore to resist attack from the air.

Thats pretty much what I thought for the railways.

As to Singapore..the Navy is going to point out that it was a fine base while the Japanese were no further forward than Formosa, now its in the battle line. And look what THEY have done to forward bases...:)

They will still use Singapore, but it will not be as the main base with ships under repair, refit, etc. Ceylon will probably get an additional floating dock, I did mention they need to build up facilities, and they can also move stuff in. Unicorn is comissioning soon, which will help (she hasnt had a high priority which is why shes taken a while). They do have ports in West India they can use if they have to.
 

sharlin

Banned
Might this not prompt the IJA and co to jump the gun and attack early by trying to pre-empt the Empire's forces getting there.
 
Might this not prompt the IJA and co to jump the gun and attack early by trying to pre-empt the Empire's forces getting there.

The problem is the realy cant.
The two carriers needed for PH, Shokaku and Zuikaku wont be ready until late September. The whole Japanese plan was incredibly complex, trying to move it all forward four months from go is almost certain to end up in a truly enormous clusterfuck...

Their best bet is to
(1) Go ahead with PH
(2) Make some backup plans in case the Imperial forces in Malaya are stronger than anticipated
(3) Hope that Menzies announcment means they wont be in place soon enough (this is a mistake, because what they dont realise its its been arranged for a while, and Menzies announcment was timed for political reasons - the first ships and men are heading out very soon)
 
The USA starts delivery of Brewster Buffalo fighters to the DEI. These fighters are no longer considered a first-rank fighter by the USA, and has now been completely replaced in the USN by the more powerful Wildcat.
?Will the butterflies prevent the sinking of those couple of ship carrying Brewsters to the DEI?
 

Hyperion

Banned
The issue of where the US carriers are is going to get contentious.
At the moment, its as OTL - some supporting the fleet in the Pacific, some supporting AS work in the Atlantic.

Now they dont need them as much in the Atlantic TTL, as the number of CVE and conversions is rising steadily. The issue is, is the USN actually learning from the USN? They have observers (and probably even a few 'Canadian' officers, but will they listen??

They didnt in OTL regarding the AS tecniques (thankyou Admiral King:(), so will they absorb the lessons of the need for heavy strikes and probbaly pairing up carriers?? The USN, at its top levels, had a definate fatal case of head-up-ass before WW2, they were real masters of it...

What about officers like Halsey, Nimitz, or Wilson Brown?

OTL, Halsey had two carriers available in February when he and Fletcher raided the Marshall Islands. Perhaps ITTL, he or Fletcher one suggest combining the squadrons of the Enterprise and Yorktown, as opposed to independent attacks, of which OTL the Yorktown squadrons where not able to do much, partly due to bad weather, partly due to an overall lack of targets.

http://www.microworks.net/pacific/battles/early_carrier_raids.htm

Maybe with the Hornet in service longer, perhaps Wilson Brown, come February or March, might have, depending on the date, a second or even three carriers to attack either Rabaul or the landings in New Guinea.

That and with more firepower, if the New Guinea landings occur same or similar to OTL, perhaps he might be willing or able to launch a second stike on the Japanese invasion force, something OTL he was somewhat critisized for not doing.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top