He may do that anyway. Of course, that probably means he will take his frustration out on Greece...
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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He may do that anyway. Of course, that probably means he will take his frustration out on Greece...
Even if the Germans are able to land, how long will it take to modify their vehicles to desert operating conditions? I'd think you're looking at possibly at least a week or so to get things done. This is of course assuming that they decide better to get a defensive force in place in Tunisia first before modifying them even if it means they wont be able to advance much straight away to secure it rather than do it in Italy and then ship them over with the possibility of losing their landing sites in the meantime.
If memory serves they'd been quietly monkeying around with the ship's fuel gauges so that whilst they read mostly empty there was actually enough to get them out of France and to French North Africa I think it was if the Germans ever looked like trying to seize them. Failing that the plan was to scuttle them if any of the ships couldn't get away.
My suggestion about de Tassigny is serious, btw. It's just not in the man's character to let the Germans land.
I've read that as well.
You know ... We´re here, they´re there ... it would be really rude not present our respect to our new neighbors. Bloody rude I say.
Which would later be iconically represented in in the German film Der Idiot.
That sort of rant Astro?
I cannot really see how can the Italians survive without German help. They are toasted. But the butterflies in French Africa can be interesting ... or not. If the Italians loose Tripoli I can imagine Hitler "washing his hands" in that matter and concentrate his attention in the SU, BTW If there is not a fight in North Africa the Soviets will be at least a bit more receptive to red spies predicting a German attack, although ( again ) maybe not, Stalin looked like really surprised by the German treason ...
Hyperion
Banned
The big problems I see are timing and logistics.
O'Conner has no choice but to either take Tripoli, or he will have to retreat as far east as possible to consolidate his forces and set up a defensive line as fast as he realistically can.
If Rommel starts getting forces set up in brigade strength or better and enough supplies to at least conduct defensive actions, O'Conner is screwed.
Having coastal convoys are necessary if he wants to ease up his logistics line.
Hopefully, Admiral Cunningham can deliver on his promises to do damage to the Italian supply lines.
O'Conner has no choice but to either take Tripoli, or he will have to retreat as far east as possible to consolidate his forces and set up a defensive line as fast as he realistically can.
If Rommel starts getting forces set up in brigade strength or better and enough supplies to at least conduct defensive actions, O'Conner is screwed.
Having coastal convoys are necessary if he wants to ease up his logistics line.
Hopefully, Admiral Cunningham can deliver on his promises to do damage to the Italian supply lines.
12th February
With at least 40 troop trains a day crossing Hungary to Romania, Hitler is building up to a formidable 600,000-strong army on the border with the Ukraine. Much of the equipment carried by the German forces is of French make, having been seized after the French collapse last year.
The Germans' next move, now the ice has broken on the Danube, is to float pontoon bridges in the river to enable troops to enter Bulgaria, under a secret agreement reached with the Bulgarian government four days ago. The Germans have promised the Bulgarians a slice of Greek territory to give them access to the Aegean Sea after the war.
The massive German move into the Balkans has set off a wave of speculation that Hitler may be about to go to the rescue of his Italian ally, who has been badly mauled by the Greeks. Some observers, however, believe that this is the advance stage of a plan to invade the Soviet Union.
The Tripoli-bound convoy has managed to slip past the RAF in Malta, only to run into first HMS Upholder, then a strike force from HMS Victorious. As a result, only three merchant ships survive to retreat to Italy, and a destroyer is also lost. The convoy was ordered to withdraw after Tripoli advised there were RN battleships offshore - in fact there aren't, the 15" shells they assumed were from a battleship were from HMS Terror. Meanwhile Cunningham asks the RAF if they can mine Tripoli harbour whenever possible.
The British forces outside Tripoli are being built up as fast as possible. A Brigade from 2nd Armoured is already there, as are advance elements of 4th Indian. The bottleneck is transport, there are broken-down lorries lining the coast road all the way back to Benghazi. The advance is only being kept going by captured Italian vehicles and petrol, but with only one last town to go, the troops morale is high despite their exhaustion. To aid the road traffic, infantry and supplies are being brought forward on coastal shipping, and the Navy expects to be able to land two commando units west of the city tomorrow.
13th February
At Merano, Admirals Arturo Riccardi of Italy and Erich Raeder of Germany meet to discuss naval co-operation. One of the staff officers present wonders if that means German fishing boats will be sent to support Italian yachts, or vice-versa.
The RN lands the men of 51 Commando plus supporting forces and their equipment over open beaches west of Tripoli. This completes the surrounding of the city, and O'Connor hopes to be able to attack in two days; he is waiting for the rest of 4th Indian and ammunition supplies to arrive.
That night, the commandoes are surprised to intercept a car coming from the direction of Tunisia. it contains a number of men who identify themselves as French officers, and ask to be taken to Cairo to speak to general Wavell. The commandoes are surprised, but after some radio calls it is arranged that they will be taken East where they can be flown to Cairo.
The Vichy government is informed by Germany that they WILL allow their ports and facilities in North Africa to be used by the Germans, or the consequences will be 'severe'. After some hours of agonising, the Vichy regime agrees to obey the instructions and will draw up the necessary orders for the colonial territories. Despite the secrecy surrounding this meeting, a few hours later the news is in London, who rapidly (if secretly) disseminate it.
14th February
The Luftwaffe and the RA are attacking Malta heavily, in an attempt to close down the ability of the island fortress to interdict the convoys to Tripoli. While they have some success in this, the convoys still have to first evade the Maltese squadrons, then RN submarines, bombers operating from North Africa and finally surface forces. As a result the Italian navy insists they be allowed to send fewer convoys in order to escort them properly, pointing out what has happened to the latest convoy which was only lightly escorted.
In Italian Somaliland, The Italians are on the retreat. Their latest loss is the port of Kismayu, on the Indian Ocean, which was occupied at 14:00 by West, East and South African troops, under the command of Lt. Gen. Alan Cunningham. The port is the first major prize in what he plans will become a two-pronged drive, up the coast to Mogadishu, the colonial capital, and northwards up the river Juba to Ethiopia. His offensive into Italian territory began in earnest only three days ago, after an eight-week preliminary operation to recapture first parts of Kenya occupied by the Italians and then frontier posts on the Kenya-Somaliland border.
While the supply buildup outside Tripoli is not satisfactory, O'Connor considers it adequate for the one attack he is allowed to make. He has a considerable number of troops available; 4th Indian Division, a Brigade of 2nd Armoured, a New Zealand brigade and the commando units and two battalions of the Free French Foreign Legion. His hope is that the Italian defence will crack as it has done in the previous assaults.
Back in England, Dowding has been making his report to the War Cabinet on Air cooperation between the services. His conclusion is that the success in the desert is the result of close cooperation between the services and a willingness to try and understand the nature of the problems facing each of them. He recommends that each theatre creates a specific team (as the most senior officers have other tasks) to address the problems and solutions for their theatre. They will take as their starting point what has gone on in Africa and develop a doctrine for support operations.
In addition, he passes on the requests from Cairo for desperately needed air power. He has spent the previous day checking on the availability of planes in the UK, and points out that there are now ample planes available for defence, and that all available Hurricanes (and Sparrowhawks) would be best used in North Africa and Greece where they can directly engage the enemy. He dismisses the RAF theory of attacking over France with fighter sweeps as inefficient and merely losing more pilots than the Germans.
15th February.
The British make their assault on Tripoli, let by 2nd Armoured. The attack is supported by all the operation RAF aircraft available; after the attack a few days ago, the Italians evacuated the aircraft from Mellaha, and the only air support now available is bombers from Sicily. The Mediterranean fleet is also out in force, the battleships shelling the city (in particular the port) covered by the carriers. The Italian surface forces are absent, but one Italian submarine is sunk by RN destroyers as it tries to close on the fleet. The dive bombers from the two carriers are also attacking targets of opportunity in the defence perimeter, the idea being to put the maximum pressure on the defenders.
The attackers put pressure on the Italian defensive perimeter as they probe for a weak spot; ironically many of the shells they are using to pound the Italians are Italian in origin - the British have captured more Italian artillery and ammunition than they can use. The assault goes on throughout the day, and by the evening the British have identified a couple of areas they think exploitable. Overnight, air raids and occasional artillery barrages go on, both to wear out the defenders and to make them believe the British have ample ammunition. Meanwhile the troops are briefed on tomorrows assault, O'Connors final throw of the dice.
Commonwealth troops capture the port of Kismayu in Italian Somaliland.
Chancellor Adolf Hitler meets the Yugoslav Premier Cvetkovic and his Foreign Minister Cinkar-Markvic at Berchtesgaden to urge them to join the Tripartite Pact. They still refuse to commit their country, in the hope that Hitler will soon be preoccupied with relations with the Soviet Union and that they can get aid from Britain and the USA.
Admiral Harold R. Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, sends a message to Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet based in the Territory of Hawaii, regarding anti-torpedo baffles for protection against torpedo plane attacks on Pearl Harbor. The message states that “consideration has been given to the installation of anti-torpedo baffles within Pearl Harbor for protection against torpedo plane attacks. It is considered that the relatively shallow depth of water limits the need for anti-torpedo nets in Pearl Harbor. In addition the congestion and the necessity for manoeuvring room limit the practicability of the present type of baffles.”
The Vichy government informs the colonies in North Africa of the decision to open its ports and provide support and help for German forces expected soon. The orders do not go down well even in Algeria, the most pro-Vichy of the colonial areas. It is expected that the first convoys will arrive in about a week, and food fuel and water will need to be provided, as well as turning a number of airbases over to the Luftwaffe. The authorities keep the order secret until they can work out how to present this to their men - more than one governor is worried about actual mutiny once they hear of it.
The officers who presented themselves in Tunisia have reached Cairo, where they speak with General Bethouart, who is currently commanding the Free French forces in Africa, and General Wavell. As a result Wavell signals to Ethiopia asking how difficult it would be to transfer some or all of the 1st Free French Division to North Africa, and how long it would take.
With at least 40 troop trains a day crossing Hungary to Romania, Hitler is building up to a formidable 600,000-strong army on the border with the Ukraine. Much of the equipment carried by the German forces is of French make, having been seized after the French collapse last year.
The Germans' next move, now the ice has broken on the Danube, is to float pontoon bridges in the river to enable troops to enter Bulgaria, under a secret agreement reached with the Bulgarian government four days ago. The Germans have promised the Bulgarians a slice of Greek territory to give them access to the Aegean Sea after the war.
The massive German move into the Balkans has set off a wave of speculation that Hitler may be about to go to the rescue of his Italian ally, who has been badly mauled by the Greeks. Some observers, however, believe that this is the advance stage of a plan to invade the Soviet Union.
The Tripoli-bound convoy has managed to slip past the RAF in Malta, only to run into first HMS Upholder, then a strike force from HMS Victorious. As a result, only three merchant ships survive to retreat to Italy, and a destroyer is also lost. The convoy was ordered to withdraw after Tripoli advised there were RN battleships offshore - in fact there aren't, the 15" shells they assumed were from a battleship were from HMS Terror. Meanwhile Cunningham asks the RAF if they can mine Tripoli harbour whenever possible.
The British forces outside Tripoli are being built up as fast as possible. A Brigade from 2nd Armoured is already there, as are advance elements of 4th Indian. The bottleneck is transport, there are broken-down lorries lining the coast road all the way back to Benghazi. The advance is only being kept going by captured Italian vehicles and petrol, but with only one last town to go, the troops morale is high despite their exhaustion. To aid the road traffic, infantry and supplies are being brought forward on coastal shipping, and the Navy expects to be able to land two commando units west of the city tomorrow.
13th February
At Merano, Admirals Arturo Riccardi of Italy and Erich Raeder of Germany meet to discuss naval co-operation. One of the staff officers present wonders if that means German fishing boats will be sent to support Italian yachts, or vice-versa.
The RN lands the men of 51 Commando plus supporting forces and their equipment over open beaches west of Tripoli. This completes the surrounding of the city, and O'Connor hopes to be able to attack in two days; he is waiting for the rest of 4th Indian and ammunition supplies to arrive.
That night, the commandoes are surprised to intercept a car coming from the direction of Tunisia. it contains a number of men who identify themselves as French officers, and ask to be taken to Cairo to speak to general Wavell. The commandoes are surprised, but after some radio calls it is arranged that they will be taken East where they can be flown to Cairo.
The Vichy government is informed by Germany that they WILL allow their ports and facilities in North Africa to be used by the Germans, or the consequences will be 'severe'. After some hours of agonising, the Vichy regime agrees to obey the instructions and will draw up the necessary orders for the colonial territories. Despite the secrecy surrounding this meeting, a few hours later the news is in London, who rapidly (if secretly) disseminate it.
14th February
The Luftwaffe and the RA are attacking Malta heavily, in an attempt to close down the ability of the island fortress to interdict the convoys to Tripoli. While they have some success in this, the convoys still have to first evade the Maltese squadrons, then RN submarines, bombers operating from North Africa and finally surface forces. As a result the Italian navy insists they be allowed to send fewer convoys in order to escort them properly, pointing out what has happened to the latest convoy which was only lightly escorted.
In Italian Somaliland, The Italians are on the retreat. Their latest loss is the port of Kismayu, on the Indian Ocean, which was occupied at 14:00 by West, East and South African troops, under the command of Lt. Gen. Alan Cunningham. The port is the first major prize in what he plans will become a two-pronged drive, up the coast to Mogadishu, the colonial capital, and northwards up the river Juba to Ethiopia. His offensive into Italian territory began in earnest only three days ago, after an eight-week preliminary operation to recapture first parts of Kenya occupied by the Italians and then frontier posts on the Kenya-Somaliland border.
While the supply buildup outside Tripoli is not satisfactory, O'Connor considers it adequate for the one attack he is allowed to make. He has a considerable number of troops available; 4th Indian Division, a Brigade of 2nd Armoured, a New Zealand brigade and the commando units and two battalions of the Free French Foreign Legion. His hope is that the Italian defence will crack as it has done in the previous assaults.
Back in England, Dowding has been making his report to the War Cabinet on Air cooperation between the services. His conclusion is that the success in the desert is the result of close cooperation between the services and a willingness to try and understand the nature of the problems facing each of them. He recommends that each theatre creates a specific team (as the most senior officers have other tasks) to address the problems and solutions for their theatre. They will take as their starting point what has gone on in Africa and develop a doctrine for support operations.
In addition, he passes on the requests from Cairo for desperately needed air power. He has spent the previous day checking on the availability of planes in the UK, and points out that there are now ample planes available for defence, and that all available Hurricanes (and Sparrowhawks) would be best used in North Africa and Greece where they can directly engage the enemy. He dismisses the RAF theory of attacking over France with fighter sweeps as inefficient and merely losing more pilots than the Germans.
15th February.
The British make their assault on Tripoli, let by 2nd Armoured. The attack is supported by all the operation RAF aircraft available; after the attack a few days ago, the Italians evacuated the aircraft from Mellaha, and the only air support now available is bombers from Sicily. The Mediterranean fleet is also out in force, the battleships shelling the city (in particular the port) covered by the carriers. The Italian surface forces are absent, but one Italian submarine is sunk by RN destroyers as it tries to close on the fleet. The dive bombers from the two carriers are also attacking targets of opportunity in the defence perimeter, the idea being to put the maximum pressure on the defenders.
The attackers put pressure on the Italian defensive perimeter as they probe for a weak spot; ironically many of the shells they are using to pound the Italians are Italian in origin - the British have captured more Italian artillery and ammunition than they can use. The assault goes on throughout the day, and by the evening the British have identified a couple of areas they think exploitable. Overnight, air raids and occasional artillery barrages go on, both to wear out the defenders and to make them believe the British have ample ammunition. Meanwhile the troops are briefed on tomorrows assault, O'Connors final throw of the dice.
Commonwealth troops capture the port of Kismayu in Italian Somaliland.
Chancellor Adolf Hitler meets the Yugoslav Premier Cvetkovic and his Foreign Minister Cinkar-Markvic at Berchtesgaden to urge them to join the Tripartite Pact. They still refuse to commit their country, in the hope that Hitler will soon be preoccupied with relations with the Soviet Union and that they can get aid from Britain and the USA.
Admiral Harold R. Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, sends a message to Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet based in the Territory of Hawaii, regarding anti-torpedo baffles for protection against torpedo plane attacks on Pearl Harbor. The message states that “consideration has been given to the installation of anti-torpedo baffles within Pearl Harbor for protection against torpedo plane attacks. It is considered that the relatively shallow depth of water limits the need for anti-torpedo nets in Pearl Harbor. In addition the congestion and the necessity for manoeuvring room limit the practicability of the present type of baffles.”
The Vichy government informs the colonies in North Africa of the decision to open its ports and provide support and help for German forces expected soon. The orders do not go down well even in Algeria, the most pro-Vichy of the colonial areas. It is expected that the first convoys will arrive in about a week, and food fuel and water will need to be provided, as well as turning a number of airbases over to the Luftwaffe. The authorities keep the order secret until they can work out how to present this to their men - more than one governor is worried about actual mutiny once they hear of it.
The officers who presented themselves in Tunisia have reached Cairo, where they speak with General Bethouart, who is currently commanding the Free French forces in Africa, and General Wavell. As a result Wavell signals to Ethiopia asking how difficult it would be to transfer some or all of the 1st Free French Division to North Africa, and how long it would take.
How can you leave us hanging like this re Tripoli?
Because I'm a mean, evil Dragon
That being said, the line about fishing boats supporting yachts is comedy gold.
TYVM
Garrison
Donor
So the Germans aren't going to be suicidal enough to send troops through Tripoli, and we can guess who those French officers are acting on behalf of. I wonder if ITTL the Afrikacorps will be anything but a minor footnote in the history books? Their destruction just recorded as the first act in a revolt in the French colonies?
Now what on earth makes you think that will happen?
But true, if you are going to surrender or change sides, always easier to do your your own people. Even if they are led by DeGaulle...
Unless he gets the same treatment Dowding and Park recieved from the Whitehall Mafia. Promoted into obscurity, for the gross insubordination of being both competant and right.
Given how Churchill's pushing to get forces into Greece it's a real possibility. I can see the Australian 9th and New Zealand divisions being sacrificed in the hope of good publicity in the US. When it all goes wrong (and it will) Moreshead and Freyburge will make acceptable scapegoats in Churchill's eyes. They're only colonials afterall, not really British.
Hyperion
Banned
Unless he gets the same treatment Dowding and Park recieved from the Whitehall Mafia. Promoted into obscurity, for the gross insubordination of being both competant and right.
Given how Churchill's pushing to get forces into Greece it's a real possibility. I can see the Australian 9th and New Zealand divisions being sacrificed in the hope of good publicity in the US. When it all goes wrong (and it will) Moreshead and Freyburge will make acceptable scapegoats in Churchill's eyes. They're only colonials afterall, not really British.
O'Conner has a chance to crush the Axis forces in North Africa permanently.
Certain issues within the RAF aside, I don't see the British Army being that stupid.
O'Conner is a Major General right now. In OTL, his third star was temporary, and he didn't get it permanently until he broke out of his prison in Italy and got sent to Normandy after D-Day. Here wherever he goes next, whatever he does, he's taking a well deserved 3 star rank with him.
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