I know we've had major suicide incidents, but has there been organized efforts to, say, 'mercy kill pure Aryan children, before the rapist Indians get them,' or anything like that?
The Anglo/American - Nazi War
- Thread starter CalBear
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I know we've had major suicide incidents, but has there been organized efforts to, say, 'mercy kill pure Aryan children, before the rapist Indians get them,' or anything like that?
I'd feel foolish for giving CalBear ideas, but I'm sure he's already thought of it.
I know it was done in OTL, but mainly in terms of Frau Gobbels doing in her kids, not an SS squad machine gunning a whole primary school.
I think massive Nazi biological-chemic terrorist attacks on WAllies metropolies and states weren´t included. CalBear wanted to include them but it would throw the world into a second Middle Age, technologically speaking.
Holy shit there's millions of women all over the ATL Reich that have been indoctrinated since birth to see people like Magda Goebbels as the highest pinnacle of female virtue. To paraphrase her line in Downfall; "A world without National Socialism is a world in which I do not want my children to live".
This, or something like it, is what millions of ATL schoolgirls have been reciting in whatever creepy motherhood classes they're enrolled in instead of real education in the ATL Reich.
Which brings an interesting topic to mind; how has the Reich's view of women as basically birthing cattle and the prolonged war changed TTL's development of feminism? There's no postwar boom and pushing women out of the workforce, no labor-saving devices and retrenching of gender roles to cause the value of domestic labor to plummet relative to the prewar era, so I don't think there are any Betty Drapers running around in ATL 1959....
I wonder what life is like for female intellectuals living in a world where a major power treats women as ambulatory wombs as a matter of state policy?
Thankfully, it'd also be pertinent that every other non-puppet power whatsoever views said major power as the virtual incarnation of evil...
I don´t thiknk this is a problem in the West (WAllies), as I think most of the males are in the army because of the permanent mobilization/draft for the last 20+ years in some cases. The WAllie woman question has been as in OTL postponed for the period after the war, the problem is that the war LASTED for the LAST FRICKIN 20 YEARS in difference to the OTLs 5 years.
Await a Feminism Storm beginning after Victory over the nazis, only that in TTL the women working instead of men in factories and beurocracy had 20 YEARS instead of 5 to be "indoctrinated" by ideas of gender egalitarianism, so it will be not storm as much as a hurricane of feminism that comes after the war.
Exactly.
I think massive Nazi biological-chemic terrorist attacks on WAllies metropolies and states weren´t included. CalBear wanted to include them but it would throw the world into a second Middle Age, technologically speaking.
The Nazis tried that and failed.
Even if they succeeded, I really doubt it would cause technological collapse. The Western Allies are just too huge and too spread out for the Nazis to conceivably gas/plague every significant population center.
If not more so--in OTL, federal "liberalizing" efforts re: race weren't especially effective in the South, but I don't know of any problems re: sex.
(In fact, in "The Good War," I remember reading about hillbilly women working in a munitions plant. No mention of outraged redneck men pitching fits their womenfolk had independent incomes.)
I wonder if in TTL the pro-choice movement will be able to tar the pro-life movement with the Nazis' extreme-natalist attitudes? Of course, the pro-lifers can hit back over eugenics. Both sides might invoke the Nazis against the other.
Pro-Choice: If you don't support legalization of abortion, you want women to be used as breeders just like the Nazis did!
Pro-Life: By supporting aborting children who are "unfit" (genetic diseases or fetal injury) or whose fathers are bad (rape or abandonment), you're eugenicist just like the Nazis!
(Note: This is not to denounce either position as being deliberately evil. Pro-lifers aren't Taliban and pro-choicers aren't eugenicists. Nobody try to turn this into an abortion debate.)
I know this is a popular thing in OTL, and I'm struck by a recollection of its use in post-war Germany. Students protesting government actions labeled the government the new Nazis, using state power to flatten their enemies, and the legislators accused the students in the streets of being the new Nazis, trying to use gang tactics and brute intimidation to overturn the democratic process.
This is unlikely to be a problem in CalBear's postwar Germany, but it is a striking example.
Erk. Now there's a scary thought. And I mean scary in context of the shit that's already gone down here.
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Do you think along the same lines as me - the nation of germany commiting mass suicide on a personal level!?
It's hard to see a real 'feminist' movement happening with any great force TTL. Women have cemented their place in the workplace, and unlike OTL they aren't going to be giving up their much longer careers to go be pure homemakers as they did in huge numbers during the 50's. Pay equality is probably a lot closer than OTL as well.
A lot of the huge liberal/radical movements of the 60's are either smoothed out, like race relations and probably gender equality (not saying those are perfectly smooth at all, but that the gross inequality is gone or 'being taken care of') or not an issue, since their 'Soviet counterpart' here are the Nazis, an ideology that never attempted to co-opt peace movements or could generate any sympathy as Communism could. When the Allies do soul searching TTL and ask themselves "Did we do the right thing?", the only answer is a shouting 'YES!' (with of course the regret being in the details i.e., use of nukes/anthrax/shoot on sight and etc.)
That's the 'benefit' of having a black and white conflict, no true regrets.
A lot of the huge liberal/radical movements of the 60's are either smoothed out, like race relations and probably gender equality (not saying those are perfectly smooth at all, but that the gross inequality is gone or 'being taken care of') or not an issue, since their 'Soviet counterpart' here are the Nazis, an ideology that never attempted to co-opt peace movements or could generate any sympathy as Communism could. When the Allies do soul searching TTL and ask themselves "Did we do the right thing?", the only answer is a shouting 'YES!' (with of course the regret being in the details i.e., use of nukes/anthrax/shoot on sight and etc.)
That's the 'benefit' of having a black and white conflict, no true regrets.
Does anyone think Germany will survive this war? I don't mean, will they manage to peace out (That was pretty much impossible from 1950 onwards.), I mean can the idea of Germany survive?
The Third World seems to be better off, except Africa which could be better the same or a little worse if CalBear's feeling mean. And China.This is the only positive thing that can be said of this war.
Marc A
I've been reading this TL since Wednesday night, I've gotten almost no sleep, I'm caught up, and I'm ready for the update!
Hate to keep Adam waiting...
Comments?
58
At the same time as the Allies sent their formal demands to the Reich’s leadership they also virtually papered all of unoccupied Germany and the General Government areas with leaflets repeating the same demands. One significant difference in the leaflets was an assurance that civilian populations would be treated in accordance with all terms of the Geneva Convention, a statement that would also be broadcast across the breadth of the country. Following the rejection of the ultimatum by Berlin, the Allied dropped a second five million leaflets (an act that disrupted newspaper delivery across Britain for two days due to paper and press shortages) with the following stark message:
To the Citizens and residents of the Third Reich:
Your leaders having ignored our Ultimatum of July 8th, we offer you individually the following opportunity:
Any civilian presenting themselves to Allied forces by Sunset on July 12th, 1959 will be properly treated, given medical treatment if necessary, food and shelter. Individuals wishing to accept this offer should bring this leaflet to the nearest Allied forces. Follow ALL direction given by Allied troops. Failure to follow ALL instructions may result in the use of lethal force.
If you choose to decline this humanitarian offer be aware of the following:
The distribution of these leaflets produced a single primary reaction among German civilians, utter panic. In several towns near the Allied front lines open battles broke out in the streets between those attempting to flee and those who saw them as traitors. In other locations the panic took a form that the Allies had not even considered possible with mass murder-suicides on a scale unseen since the final defeat of Japan (some estimates of the dead from these mainly family group acts exceed 70,000, a not unreasonable figure given the enormous size of many German families where six children was considered to be a modest brood). While many of these cases were seemingly voluntary, at least by those old enough to understand (some 20,000 victims were under the age of seven) there is also indisputable evidence that at least five villages were wiped out by SS troops aided by local Hitler Youth with the younger perpetrators then taking their own lives. In defense of the Allies, this phenomenon was not discovered until after resistance collapsed in the regions effected. In other areas, mainly those furthest from the Allied lines, the civilian population largely seems to have accepted that they were doomed and went about their regular activities.
The leaflets also unleashed a firestorm within Allied military circles, especially once the rules of engagement putting them into effect were released by the Combined Chiefs of Staff. Often called the “Tokyo protocol” or the “Oxcart directive” the rules called upon Allied air, naval and ground units to “disrupt ALL enemy movement be it by foot, animal transport, motor traffic, rail, or by air” without warning or consideration for “collateral damage” (the first known use of the term by Anglo/American planners). The orders were nothing short of a hunting license issued to well over 2 million Allied troops and airmen in Europe.
The first casualty of the new orders was the newly appointed U.S. Chief of Naval Operations Fleet Admiral Joseph “Jocko” Clark who submitted his retirement papers simultaneously with the broadcast of the Rules of Engagement. His retirement letter, which included the now famous “I can not be a party to another massacre of innocents, once in any man’s lifetime is all that can be borne”, and his subsequent memoirs, have long been viewed as examples of honorable protest in the face of impossible choices. In short order Clark’s resignation was followed by that of the Assistant Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, the Secretary of the Army, and the 1st Lord of the Admiralty. What all of these men, and most of the close to two dozen other military and civilian senior leaders who followed their lead, had in common was service in Japan immediately after the Capitulation.
While the number of resignation or refusals to follow orders on moral grounds by the lower ranks was far from crippling to the war effort, it remains striking that virtually off of these cases came from men who had served in immediate post-war Japan. This was seen, at the time, as a unique form of “battle fatigue” (and based on today’s understanding of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it is probable that many of the cases were PSTD related), and to the credit of SACEUR General Ridgeway none of the men (or six Army nurses) involved had any corrective action taken against them. All American personnel were sent home to the U.S. to complete their term of enlistment and were, if cleared by medical personnel, allowed to continue their military service in non combat branches (actions by other nations varied slightly, but no national force was willing to publicly go against SACEUR at this point of the war).
***
The Allies actually extended their deadline by a full day in order to ensure that the maximum number of civilians were allowed to escape the firestorm to come. Just before sunrise on July 14th the Allied air forces began their work. The target was Magdenburg.
Located just outside the “Berlin Contamination Zone” Magdenburg’s population had swollen from its normal 200,000 to nearly 300,000 with refugees from the Contamination Zone and those seeking to escape the rapidly advancing Allies. Australian forces had been fired upon when approaching the city and radio calls to surrender had been ignored. The USAF therefore chose it as an example of what the Allies could do, even without resorting to nuclear weapons. The 14th was nearly perfect bombing weather, with an unlimited ceiling and very low winds. Nevertheless the Australians, on the advice of RAAF CAS observers, pulled back nearly four miles from the visible city limits in the hours before the attack. The troops then dug in and waited for what was expected to be “a bloody big show”. This belief was an understatement.
At 05:43 hours local time the first three plane cell of B-52 bombers dropped their payload on the eastern edge of the city. Each aircraft was loaded sixty 750 pound bombs for a total of 45,000 pounds per aircraft (something of an overload, but with the relatively short distance to target, and the availability of 15,000 foot runways, the mission proved to be well within the Boeing’s capabilities) and the carefully configured three plane formation ensured the best possible coverage for the combined 180 bombs dropped by the formation. Exactly three minutes behind the first cell was a second which dropped its bombs exactly three minutes after the lead group. The eleventh bomber cell was off set 800 meters to the east of the first stream’s flight path and its bombs were once against aimed at the eastern edge of Magdenburg, with the 22nd cell starting the next tunnel of destruction. This procession continued for two hours until 120 aircraft had dropped along the same corridor. This process created a continuous wave of destruction that rolled through what had, until 05:42 that morning, been the capital of Saxony-Anhalt. A second wave of bombers, scheduled to begin its attacks at 13:00 hours was cancelled when BDA observers over flying the city at 11:55 reported that there were “no remaining discernable target markers available”. The city had been pulverized beyond any recognition as a site of human habitation. Five B-52’s suffered some sort of mechanical failure during the attack, with one being force to crash land at the recently reopened Paris airport. This aircraft, which had to be written off due to the damage it received when it ran out of runway, was the only loss suffered by the bomber force. Luftwaffe losses were all eight fighters that appeared to challenge the nearly 100 Allied fighters protecting the bomber force.
Deaths in Magdenburg have never been firmly established, partly due to the number of refugees in the city who were untraceable, but mainly due to the totally destroyed condition of the city. The Commander of 1st Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment battle diary describes conditions in Magdenburg on the morning of July 16th as “resembling a freshly plowed field, if the field in question had previously consisted of bricks, concrete and wood.” In place, the debris, none of it larger than a man’s fist, was measured as being 8 feet deep, with no identifiable structures remaining intact. Australian forces eventually counted 37,659 civilian survivors who were moved to temporary camps.
It was the start.
It was far from the finish.
Comments?
58
At the same time as the Allies sent their formal demands to the Reich’s leadership they also virtually papered all of unoccupied Germany and the General Government areas with leaflets repeating the same demands. One significant difference in the leaflets was an assurance that civilian populations would be treated in accordance with all terms of the Geneva Convention, a statement that would also be broadcast across the breadth of the country. Following the rejection of the ultimatum by Berlin, the Allied dropped a second five million leaflets (an act that disrupted newspaper delivery across Britain for two days due to paper and press shortages) with the following stark message:
To the Citizens and residents of the Third Reich:
Your leaders having ignored our Ultimatum of July 8th, we offer you individually the following opportunity:
Any civilian presenting themselves to Allied forces by Sunset on July 12th, 1959 will be properly treated, given medical treatment if necessary, food and shelter. Individuals wishing to accept this offer should bring this leaflet to the nearest Allied forces. Follow ALL direction given by Allied troops. Failure to follow ALL instructions may result in the use of lethal force.
If you choose to decline this humanitarian offer be aware of the following:
- Any movement observed in territory not under Allied control as of Sunset on July 12th, 1959 will be subject to attack by Allied air, ground or naval forces.
- Any residential center, be it a village, town or city, that resists Allied troops may be totally destroyed without further notice as of Sunset on July 12th 1959.
- All facilities capable of being used to support Waffen SS or Reich local reserve forces are subject to attack by any and all weapons within Allied control. This includes agricultural production and transport.
- Any person found in possession of a weapon but not in uniform will not be provided the protection due to belligerents under the applicable Conventions. Any Person or persons found to be sheltering a spy or saboteur will be likewise considered to be a spy or saboteur.
The distribution of these leaflets produced a single primary reaction among German civilians, utter panic. In several towns near the Allied front lines open battles broke out in the streets between those attempting to flee and those who saw them as traitors. In other locations the panic took a form that the Allies had not even considered possible with mass murder-suicides on a scale unseen since the final defeat of Japan (some estimates of the dead from these mainly family group acts exceed 70,000, a not unreasonable figure given the enormous size of many German families where six children was considered to be a modest brood). While many of these cases were seemingly voluntary, at least by those old enough to understand (some 20,000 victims were under the age of seven) there is also indisputable evidence that at least five villages were wiped out by SS troops aided by local Hitler Youth with the younger perpetrators then taking their own lives. In defense of the Allies, this phenomenon was not discovered until after resistance collapsed in the regions effected. In other areas, mainly those furthest from the Allied lines, the civilian population largely seems to have accepted that they were doomed and went about their regular activities.
The leaflets also unleashed a firestorm within Allied military circles, especially once the rules of engagement putting them into effect were released by the Combined Chiefs of Staff. Often called the “Tokyo protocol” or the “Oxcart directive” the rules called upon Allied air, naval and ground units to “disrupt ALL enemy movement be it by foot, animal transport, motor traffic, rail, or by air” without warning or consideration for “collateral damage” (the first known use of the term by Anglo/American planners). The orders were nothing short of a hunting license issued to well over 2 million Allied troops and airmen in Europe.
The first casualty of the new orders was the newly appointed U.S. Chief of Naval Operations Fleet Admiral Joseph “Jocko” Clark who submitted his retirement papers simultaneously with the broadcast of the Rules of Engagement. His retirement letter, which included the now famous “I can not be a party to another massacre of innocents, once in any man’s lifetime is all that can be borne”, and his subsequent memoirs, have long been viewed as examples of honorable protest in the face of impossible choices. In short order Clark’s resignation was followed by that of the Assistant Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, the Secretary of the Army, and the 1st Lord of the Admiralty. What all of these men, and most of the close to two dozen other military and civilian senior leaders who followed their lead, had in common was service in Japan immediately after the Capitulation.
While the number of resignation or refusals to follow orders on moral grounds by the lower ranks was far from crippling to the war effort, it remains striking that virtually off of these cases came from men who had served in immediate post-war Japan. This was seen, at the time, as a unique form of “battle fatigue” (and based on today’s understanding of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, it is probable that many of the cases were PSTD related), and to the credit of SACEUR General Ridgeway none of the men (or six Army nurses) involved had any corrective action taken against them. All American personnel were sent home to the U.S. to complete their term of enlistment and were, if cleared by medical personnel, allowed to continue their military service in non combat branches (actions by other nations varied slightly, but no national force was willing to publicly go against SACEUR at this point of the war).
***
The Allies actually extended their deadline by a full day in order to ensure that the maximum number of civilians were allowed to escape the firestorm to come. Just before sunrise on July 14th the Allied air forces began their work. The target was Magdenburg.
Located just outside the “Berlin Contamination Zone” Magdenburg’s population had swollen from its normal 200,000 to nearly 300,000 with refugees from the Contamination Zone and those seeking to escape the rapidly advancing Allies. Australian forces had been fired upon when approaching the city and radio calls to surrender had been ignored. The USAF therefore chose it as an example of what the Allies could do, even without resorting to nuclear weapons. The 14th was nearly perfect bombing weather, with an unlimited ceiling and very low winds. Nevertheless the Australians, on the advice of RAAF CAS observers, pulled back nearly four miles from the visible city limits in the hours before the attack. The troops then dug in and waited for what was expected to be “a bloody big show”. This belief was an understatement.
At 05:43 hours local time the first three plane cell of B-52 bombers dropped their payload on the eastern edge of the city. Each aircraft was loaded sixty 750 pound bombs for a total of 45,000 pounds per aircraft (something of an overload, but with the relatively short distance to target, and the availability of 15,000 foot runways, the mission proved to be well within the Boeing’s capabilities) and the carefully configured three plane formation ensured the best possible coverage for the combined 180 bombs dropped by the formation. Exactly three minutes behind the first cell was a second which dropped its bombs exactly three minutes after the lead group. The eleventh bomber cell was off set 800 meters to the east of the first stream’s flight path and its bombs were once against aimed at the eastern edge of Magdenburg, with the 22nd cell starting the next tunnel of destruction. This procession continued for two hours until 120 aircraft had dropped along the same corridor. This process created a continuous wave of destruction that rolled through what had, until 05:42 that morning, been the capital of Saxony-Anhalt. A second wave of bombers, scheduled to begin its attacks at 13:00 hours was cancelled when BDA observers over flying the city at 11:55 reported that there were “no remaining discernable target markers available”. The city had been pulverized beyond any recognition as a site of human habitation. Five B-52’s suffered some sort of mechanical failure during the attack, with one being force to crash land at the recently reopened Paris airport. This aircraft, which had to be written off due to the damage it received when it ran out of runway, was the only loss suffered by the bomber force. Luftwaffe losses were all eight fighters that appeared to challenge the nearly 100 Allied fighters protecting the bomber force.
Deaths in Magdenburg have never been firmly established, partly due to the number of refugees in the city who were untraceable, but mainly due to the totally destroyed condition of the city. The Commander of 1st Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment battle diary describes conditions in Magdenburg on the morning of July 16th as “resembling a freshly plowed field, if the field in question had previously consisted of bricks, concrete and wood.” In place, the debris, none of it larger than a man’s fist, was measured as being 8 feet deep, with no identifiable structures remaining intact. Australian forces eventually counted 37,659 civilian survivors who were moved to temporary camps.
It was the start.
It was far from the finish.
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