Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa
- Thread starter Cymraeg
- Start date
Splinters - 53
1300 Hours 4th October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
It had not been a pleasant day and a half, Zeitzler thought tiredly as he stood by the table and watched as the Fuhrer glared down at the map. So far the news from Egypt was still very bad.
Kesselring’s surrender meant that the nearest divisional-sized unit was the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti, a motorised formation that had been at the oasis at Siwa during the battle of 2nd Alamein. Zeitzler still wasn’t sure why a valuable motorised division had been at Siwa, but at least it had been able to escape the disaster that had overcome Kesselring’s main forces. Right now the division was being redeployed North-West as fast as possible towards Tobruk, where Nehring was trying to pull things together, despite the fact that he had barely recovered from the wound he had suffered at Alam Halfa. Apparently there was supposed to be an Italian in charge somewhere, but Zeitzler had no idea who or for that matter where.
Then there were the fleeing supply units, both German and Italian that were heading West as fast as possible. These weren’t really equipped to be fighting units however, and besides the British armoured car units were harrying them as they went, making the retreat even worse. To Hitler’s anger the supply and repair bases behind the old lines had been either captured by the British or destroyed by the retreating Axis units, so a number of panzers that could have been restored to working order had been lost.
Put simply the cupboard was bare in terms of Axis manpower in North Africa. The remaining Italian formations in North Africa were either empty shells of their former glory or were far too small. Combining everything might result in an understrength division of highly uneven quality.
As for 6th Panzer, well the advance elements were being unloaded in Tripoli at the moment, but the majority of the division was still in Italy. Hitler had changed his mind twice now about holding off on the transfer – first it was off and then it was on. Or possibly the other way around.
The question was, what did Hitler want to do with North Africa? Mussolini certainly desperately needed to save Italian control of Libya, if only for political reasons. Losing Italian East Africa had been bad enough. Losing thousands of Italian soldiers at El Alamein, followed by losing Libya would be a catastrophe for the Duce. He had sent numerous appeals for more German help.
Which put the ball firmly back into Hitler’s court. At least he’d stopped shouting about Kesselring’s cowardice at not fighting to the last man and not committing suicide. “I want a full report from Nehring,” the Fuhrer snapped as he stood over the map. “I want to know what we can ship to Libya at once and defend it. If need be we’ll fly the men in. I want Tripoli held.”
Lovely, Zeitzler thought sardonically. Then he paled slightly. He just hoped that Mussolini, in his desperation, didn’t pull any Italian units from the Eastern Front. A) they wouldn’t be able to get to Libya in time and b) the Eastern Front needed every man he could get his hands on right now. The fighting in Stalingrad was like a hideous beast with a bottomless appetite – it was devouring units whole. At the moment 6th Army’s flanks was being protected by a hodge-podge of Axis units, including an Italian army. It had made Halder nervous and he could certainly see why.
For a moment he thought about pointing out that Germany didn’t need North Africa and that any forces sent there would be as good as lost. But he didn’t. He wasn’t mad.
It had not been a pleasant day and a half, Zeitzler thought tiredly as he stood by the table and watched as the Fuhrer glared down at the map. So far the news from Egypt was still very bad.
Kesselring’s surrender meant that the nearest divisional-sized unit was the 136 Infantry Division Giovani Fascisti, a motorised formation that had been at the oasis at Siwa during the battle of 2nd Alamein. Zeitzler still wasn’t sure why a valuable motorised division had been at Siwa, but at least it had been able to escape the disaster that had overcome Kesselring’s main forces. Right now the division was being redeployed North-West as fast as possible towards Tobruk, where Nehring was trying to pull things together, despite the fact that he had barely recovered from the wound he had suffered at Alam Halfa. Apparently there was supposed to be an Italian in charge somewhere, but Zeitzler had no idea who or for that matter where.
Then there were the fleeing supply units, both German and Italian that were heading West as fast as possible. These weren’t really equipped to be fighting units however, and besides the British armoured car units were harrying them as they went, making the retreat even worse. To Hitler’s anger the supply and repair bases behind the old lines had been either captured by the British or destroyed by the retreating Axis units, so a number of panzers that could have been restored to working order had been lost.
Put simply the cupboard was bare in terms of Axis manpower in North Africa. The remaining Italian formations in North Africa were either empty shells of their former glory or were far too small. Combining everything might result in an understrength division of highly uneven quality.
As for 6th Panzer, well the advance elements were being unloaded in Tripoli at the moment, but the majority of the division was still in Italy. Hitler had changed his mind twice now about holding off on the transfer – first it was off and then it was on. Or possibly the other way around.
The question was, what did Hitler want to do with North Africa? Mussolini certainly desperately needed to save Italian control of Libya, if only for political reasons. Losing Italian East Africa had been bad enough. Losing thousands of Italian soldiers at El Alamein, followed by losing Libya would be a catastrophe for the Duce. He had sent numerous appeals for more German help.
Which put the ball firmly back into Hitler’s court. At least he’d stopped shouting about Kesselring’s cowardice at not fighting to the last man and not committing suicide. “I want a full report from Nehring,” the Fuhrer snapped as he stood over the map. “I want to know what we can ship to Libya at once and defend it. If need be we’ll fly the men in. I want Tripoli held.”
Lovely, Zeitzler thought sardonically. Then he paled slightly. He just hoped that Mussolini, in his desperation, didn’t pull any Italian units from the Eastern Front. A) they wouldn’t be able to get to Libya in time and b) the Eastern Front needed every man he could get his hands on right now. The fighting in Stalingrad was like a hideous beast with a bottomless appetite – it was devouring units whole. At the moment 6th Army’s flanks was being protected by a hodge-podge of Axis units, including an Italian army. It had made Halder nervous and he could certainly see why.
For a moment he thought about pointing out that Germany didn’t need North Africa and that any forces sent there would be as good as lost. But he didn’t. He wasn’t mad.
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If the Italians yank their units in the East, what will the Sixth Army need to do in order to avoid its OTL fate?
BlairWitch749
Banned
delivering bad news to hitler at this time was not a good career move
my favorite is when he flipped out on jodl at the beginning of september
paraphrased for humor and simplicity
AH: I'm mad that army group A hasn't captured Baku and the entire caucuses yet; why is there such a lack of progress
AJ: My fuhrer; field marshal list's forces are suffering from a desperate fuel shortage and are too far from the main rail head to keep advancing without consolidating; the terrain and russian resistance are difficult obstacles
AH: Our Nazi German superhuman determination and improvization should overcome these things
AJ: Eh... well he is advancing on a front 500 miles wide and his two axis of attack are separated by 200 miles; he simply doesn't have enough forces to continue the advance, especially since you took all of his reserves and air power to go into a death match at stalingrad
AH: What that doesn't make any fucking sense, who gave that order
AJ: (hands hitler a copy of the orders signed by him) umm you did my fuhrer
AH: What? You ungerman asshole; signal field marshal list that he is relieved immediately
AJ: Should I name a replacement
AH: No I'll command the army myself in my spare time (which he did which was the most crazy thing of all the crazy things in case blue)
AJ: Umm ok
AH: Oh and get me Paulus' file I am going to think about replacing you with him and giving Von Seydlitz the sixth army you commie jew etc
BlairWitch749
Banned
there was a full strength german motorized infantry division (the 16th) at elista (which hadn't fired it's guns in 3 months) during Manstein's operation Winter Storm which if added to 6th panzer would probably have been enough to break through to 6th army; however Hitler and Kliest for reasons that are asb even by nazi standards refused to release the division from the middle of nowhere to rescue the 200k trapped men
It was there in OTL - I was surprised as well. Apparently its commander tried to persuade Rommel that, given sufficient fuel (always a touchy subject with Erwin at the best of times) the division could attack straight East, reach the Nile and them, um, presumably build a dam or something.
John Farson
Banned
And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.
And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.
How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something?
John Farson
Banned
How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something?
Or raising an army of killer mummies through necromancy?
And with spectacular examples of strategic genius like this, some people still claim with a straight face that the Axis could have won in North Africa.
Two possibilities:
1) Poison. Is it possible that by working their way to the Nile south of the heavily populated areas that they could poison the Nile somehow?
2) Even more bizarre: Redirect the Nile. Is there any way with a significant percentage of the German and Italian explosives that the Nile could be redirected either west into the desert or east with a shortcut to the Red Sea (of the two the into the desert is probably less nuts due to the Egyptian Red Sea Coastal Range.
I'm speechless.
How the f*** did that commander think he was going to get there, even with 'sufficient fuel'? In what possible state could he have even crossed the Qattara depression alone?
...If this is this one of the commanders kicked up in the hierarchy for lack of alternatives they are in worse trouble than I could have imagined.
Hyperion
Banned
Most likely explanations I can think of, Rommel, in OTL, knew he wouldn't have enough fuel to support the extra Italian division, not without compromising the Panzers of the Afrika Korps, and made up some BS reason not to bring along the division.
That or the commanding general of the division was either smart enough to see the writting on the wall and wanted to have the best chance of retreating.
That or Rommel knew the game was almost up and wanted something far back in the rear areas to help prepare to cover the retreat west.
whatisinaname
Donor
Well Hitler is being decisively indecisive over Africa, wonder what Nehring report to Hitler will say, probably nothing good or positive?
How about using rocket-powered crocodiles or something?
Or raising an army of killer mummies through necromancy?
You guys are making me scare my housemates/workmates. They don't like it when I start guffawing at my laptop.
Rocket-propelled crocodiles are good.
Not as iconic as sharks with lasers, but still good.....
Not as iconic as sharks with lasers, but still good.....
I totally agree with the premise behind this post.
As F & G sang, "Nothing's impossible I have found."