Slow Drift to War Europe 1984

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Farmer12

Mumbles, I see your point but telling Thatcher we cannot do anything would not go down well. So offering ideas like getting phantoms and finding some flyable Lightings are a way to at least shows your trying. Trust me on one thing not many planes are going to turn up Jets. I don't know a lot about jets but I did not see any mention of the RAF having special facilities for the maintaining Lighting. The condition of most of the Lightings would be to say the least a bit on the rough side. So, I don't imagine that many would be in flyable condition. As for the Phantoms you get from the Americans, if you can make at least a few them serviceable then they can help and true you will have problems all sorts but a few more planes covering the air over the UK could be use. Don't Imagine for minute that whole squadrons will turn up.

Even the tanks that are in reserve will a large number of tanks that are not operable. One thing about working on a farm is that certain pieces of equipment were only used during a few months at best and before using them someone had to go over that piece of equipment, the Combine on our farm normally was not working at peak efficiency until about mid harvest. The same with the Swather or windrower, it cuts grass, alfalfa and small grains every year you bring it out and go over it and then in the first week or two find out what else is wrong. What I find funny is at one time I was a bit of a mechanic even thought I had no interest being one.
 

Farmer12

Canadian Mobile Force



Term of enlistment- Is three-year service in both the Regular army and the Militia? There an additional period of service in some sort of ready reserve force but for how long.

The Mobile Force is made up of Regular Army units and Militia is there any other group or force that falls under the mobile force. Note comments I have read in Armies in NATO CENTRAL FRONT indicate that Canadian military felt that the militia units could be could be brought into service in two to four weeks. What are your feelings about that.

What kind of War stocks did the Canadian military maintain.

The Mobile Force has three brigades



4th Canadian Mechanized brigade group Lahr



I understand that the one company of troops from each battalion is station in Canada. At least one tank squadron and two mech infantry companies. But I did not notice any mention of other units kept understrength. I know that there is an artillery unit as well an engineering unit, both are called regiments but are actually battalion strength units and are elements of those two units stationed in Canada or are those units kept at full strength. As for the Helicopter unit is it treated in the same way.

1st Canadian brigade group Calgary

My reference material shows, one armored recon battalion and three motorized infantry battalions as well as artillery regiment battalion? As well as an Engineering Regiment battalion strength? From what I have read the Canadian Mobile Force Units in Canada proper were maintained at one company understrength. Is that for all battalions and do each unit have stockpile of equipment for that company available for service or would the Mobile Force have to strip Militia units of equipment to bring those battalions equipment up to full strength.

Manning those companies would the regular army simply use recall ready reservists to fill out those companies. Or would the Mobile Force need to use militia units to bring the battalions up to full strength. Either by attaching a company of militia to the battalion in question or by asking for volunteers to fill out the needed company possibly providing the needed officers and NCO’s from the Militia and enlisted from either the reserves or militia.

5th Groupe-Brigade du Canada Valcartier.
This unit is essentially the same as the 1st brigade except that it has one additional battalion the 2nd Battalion RCR and that battalion is equipped with M-113. All similarly understrength.

Additional Mobile FORCE UNITS
1st battalion Royal Canadian Regiment- is a component of the ALLIED MOBILE FORCE it would make sense that this unit was kept at full strength but one never knows

2nd Regiment Royal Canadian Regiment also understrength and is it armed with just the 155 mm Self-propelled or is it a mixture of 155mm SP’s and 105 tow howitzers like other battalions in Canada proper. Is this unit also under strength?

8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise’s) I understand on squadron is made up of Leopard tanks while the other squadron is a light armored squadron. With no third squadron

2ND Combat Engineers regiment a battalion strength unit in reality that is kept understrength


Canadian Airborne Regiment what was it strength and capability. The information I have is imprecise at best.
 

kessock

Farmer12 said:
Canadian Mobile Force



Term of enlistment- Is three-year service in both the Regular army and the Militia? There an additional period of service in some sort of ready reserve force but for how long. .
Click to expand...
3 years for Regular Force but the Militia had no fixed contract. It was possible to sign up, do some training then say screw it. The people who did it, did it from love or just a bit extra cash. Quite a few Reg Force guys finished their contracts then transferred to the Militia because they just liked the job and it was near home and no chance of getting transferred.

Farmer12 said:
The Mobile Force is made up of Regular Army units and Militia is there any other group or force that falls under the mobile force. Note comments I have read in Armies in NATO CENTRAL FRONT indicate that Canadian military felt that the militia units could be could be brought into service in two to four weeks. What are your feelings about that.

What kind of War stocks did the Canadian military maintain.
Click to expand...
Individual replacements would be no problem but as units no way. No Militia unit was up to strength and if one was at 50% it was doing well. War stocks? Quite a bit from the 50' and 60's but nothing to write home about. Limited ammo.

Farmer12 said:
The Mobile Force has three brigades



4th Canadian Mechanized brigade group Lahr

I understand that the one company of troops from each battalion is station in Canada. At least one tank squadron and two mech infantry companies. But I did not notice any mention of other units kept understrength. I know that there is an artillery unit as well an engineering unit, both are called regiments but are actually battalion strength units and are elements of those two units stationed in Canada or are those units kept at full strength. As for the Helicopter unit is it treated in the same way. .
Click to expand...
Only the tank squadron was flyover C Squadron RCD based in Gagetown, NB.There was a hard limit on the number of troops allowed in Europe due to the budget so no unit was fully at strength.

Farmer12 said:
1st Canadian brigade group Calgary

My reference material shows, one armored recon battalion and three motorized infantry battalions as well as artillery regiment battalion? As well as an Engineering Regiment battalion strength? From what I have read the Canadian Mobile Force Units in Canada proper were maintained at one company understrength. Is that for all battalions and do each unit have stockpile of equipment for that company available for service or would the Mobile Force have to strip Militia units of equipment to bring those battalions equipment up to full strength.

Manning those companies would the regular army simply use recall ready reservists to fill out those companies. Or would the Mobile Force need to use militia units to bring the battalions up to full strength. Either by attaching a company of militia to the battalion in question or by asking for volunteers to fill out the needed company possibly providing the needed officers and NCO’s from the Militia and enlisted from either the reserves or militia.
Click to expand...

All the battalions were running with 3 Line Companies with reduced Mortar and AT Platoons. I never saw any extra kit ready for reinforcements or heard of any plans for it. We all knew it was going to be a come as you are party. The best we could hope for is sending enough replacements for the casualties that were going to happen.

Farmer12 said:
5th Groupe-Brigade du Canada Valcartier.
This unit is essentially the same as the 1st brigade except that it has one additional battalion the 2nd Battalion RCR and that battalion is equipped with M-113. All similarly understrength.
Click to expand...

Yup. That was the unit I was with. The brigade was suppose to go to Norway from Canada. They only did one practice in 86, Ex Brave Lion. Total CF getting us there. Fun in Norway though. After that they decided to send it to Germany and re-established the Division.

Farmer12 said:
Additional Mobile FORCE UNITS
1st battalion Royal Canadian Regiment- is a component of the ALLIED MOBILE FORCE it would make sense that this unit was kept at full strength but one never knows.
Click to expand...

Same situation with the other battalions.

Farmer12 said:
2nd Regiment Royal Canadian Regiment also understrength and is it armed with just the 155 mm Self-propelled or is it a mixture of 155mm SP’s and 105 tow howitzers like other battalions in Canada proper. Is this unit also under strength?

8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise’s) I understand on squadron is made up of Leopard tanks while the other squadron is a light armored squadron. With no third squadron

2ND Combat Engineers regiment a battalion strength unit in reality that is kept understrength .
Click to expand...

You mean 2 RCA? 1 RCHA in Germany was fully M109s. The other regiments I'm not sure on.
Farmer12 said:
Canadian Airborne Regiment what was it strength and capability. The information I have is imprecise at best.
Click to expand...
3 jump companies called Commandos each with personnel from one of 3 Reg Force infantry Regiments. Hardcore and known as nutbars to everybody else. Also in attendance an airborne artillery battery, an engineering squadron and a HQ with signal platoon. A very good battlegroup. Normally identified as going to Norway or Denmark
 

Farmer12

Thank you Kessock, this is useful information and will allow me to make better decisions on how to write about the Canadian Army during this crisis. The Canadian Mobile Force is pretty much a come as you are military tells me quite a lot.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
With the Canadian 5th Brigade and its stated Norway role, they gave this a practice in '86. The Soviets had a lot of fun messing with it in coincidences with ships in ports and other accidents/games. Even then, the Canadians had a hell of a time getting their men and gear to Norway. Things would be different in wartime - easier but harder too - but those vital men weren't going get there without difficulty.
This I think should be considered with your story elsewhere too with NATO mobilisation. The Soviets could easily cause many problems among many nations without bloodshed or direct action before the bullets fly and it all gets real.
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
Also, Canadians ammo stocks were low. IIRC, they had enough for a week's worth of fighting. NATO nations had as low as four days to two weeks worth: the US had four weeks.
Such was the idea. 90s conflicts showed how bad those estimations were and how quickly ammo was used up.
As a counter, reportedly there were Soviet war stocks in East Germany for 120 days (four months!) that were sitting there unknown to NATO Intel. So much for my ideas in my TLs about NATO bombing bridges in Poland to cut off the supply links!
Just something to consider as you do yours.
 

Farmer12

James G - Low stockpiles of ammo is a problem, as for the Soviet Union having massive stockpiles of ammunition in East Germany would not surprise me but at the same time large numbers of trucks going in and out of certain unexpected locations East Germany will be sooner or later noticed by the satellites. Then you have the possibilities for an interesting attack or two. Nice add on for a time line. Also remember the Iran Iraq war was ongoing and quite a bit of ammo was being produced in Europe at this time for both sides. Just how much is uncertain but every little bit helps.
 

RetiredCdntanker

I was in Germany as a tank commander with the Royal Canadian Dragoons from 79 to 84.
We had two fully manned tank squadrons and a Recce Squadron. "C" Sqn was flyover, their kit was always ready to go, they maintained a strength of aobut 30 people to keep the tanks and kit maintained.
There was a Squadron Reserve of tanks as well, for combat replacements.
The Special Service Force, formerly 2 CMBG, consisted of the Airborne, 2 RCR, 2 RCHA, 2 Engineer Regiment and the 8th Canadian Hussars as their main combat Units. The 8CH did not have tanks, they had Cougars.
Any questions you want to ask in regards to 4CMBG, specifically the RCD, feel free to ask.
 

Farmer12

RetiredCndtanker, Thank you for that bit of info. I will once I have a better idea the way the story line goes. By the way "C" sqn had its full company of tanks at their base in Canada. One of my other sources is First Clash Combat close-up in World War Three by Kenneth Macksey. A study of the 4TH Brigade during World War Three. I looks very reliable but one never knows for sure.
 
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RetiredCdntanker

Farmer12 said:
RetiredCndtanker, Thank you for that bit of info. I will once I have a better idea the way the story line goes. By the way "C" sqn had its full company of tanks at their base in Canada. One of my other sources is First Clash Combat close-up in World War Three by Kenneth Macksey. A study of the 4TH Brigade during World War Three. I looks very reliable but one never knows for sure.
Click to expand...

"C" Sqn had two squadrons worth of tanks.
They had 19 tanks in Gagetown for training, and 19 tanks in Germany for use during Reforger/operations.
So, in Germany, the RCD had 59 tanks, plus 19 in Reserve.
A further 19 tanks belonged to the RCD, but they were in Gagetown, and available for transfer to Germany if required.
 

kessock

RetiredCdntanker said:
"C" Sqn had two squadrons worth of tanks.
They had 19 tanks in Gagetown for training, and 19 tanks in Germany for use during Reforger/operations.
So, in Germany, the RCD had 59 tanks, plus 19 in Reserve.
A further 19 tanks belonged to the RCD, but they were in Gagetown, and available for transfer to Germany if required.
Click to expand...
I remember being in the RCR lines about a mile away when they went on exercise. You more felt it than heard it. And being in a trench at night when they were manovering in your lines hoping the camo wasn't TOO effective:oops::)
 

Farmer12

Cdntanker, thanks for that information, it gives me an idea. With three squadrons of tanks, about one squadrons worth of troops into the reserve each year. So at anytime the equivalent of three squadrons of personal are in the reserves. There would be ample numbers of drivers and loaders but would there be much in the way of gunners and tank commanders. Also would the loaders be cross train to take over as a gunner. But there would be a shortage of experience NCO's and officers capable of filling out the command structure.
 

Farmer12

kessock, shades of Saving Private Ryan and the Kasserine Pass scene in The Big Red One, with the ground shaking and the fear that one of those monsters just might cave in the sides of the trench on top of you.
 

RetiredCdntanker

Farmer12 said:
Cdntanker, thanks for that information, it gives me an idea. With three squadrons of tanks, about one squadrons worth of troops into the reserve each year. So at anytime the equivalent of three squadrons of personal are in the reserves. There would be ample numbers of drivers and loaders but would there be much in the way of gunners and tank commanders. Also would the loaders be cross train to take over as a gunner. But there would be a shortage of experience NCO's and officers capable of filling out the command structure.
Click to expand...

All gunners were trained as loaders, and the other way around.
There was easily enough tank trained personnel in the Armour Corps to supply a one for one replacement of crews.
The shortage was not in crews, it was in tanks. Canada only had 114 tanks, total.
On the other hand, about 25% of the Canadian tankers were also qualified of the M60A1 AOS. Withe the US Army fielding large numbers of M1's at the time, there were hundreds of M60A1's in war reserve in the US. That was also, basically, Canada's backup.
 

Farmer12

I kind of thought so, but I was not sure, l don't what to go into to much detail about what I am thinking but this has been useful.
 

RetiredCdntanker

I should also have mentioned one other thing that may be useful.
4 CMBG had a dual role, depending on the enemy axis of advance and who was taking the most losses.
We were reserve for either 2 GE Corps, or VII US Corps.
 

Farmer12

From what I have read it was virtually the one of the few units held in reserve in CENTAG as a whole. Now its back to writing. I must be writing if there is to be a story. But I will check back later.
 

Ludwig von Stieglitz

Banned
The ammunition situation is surely important, but in nu experience many fail to see where the true advantages of NATO during the 80s were; mobility, deep integration of air and land forces, better AEW&C.
NATO doctrine was not to confront the soviets head-on, but instead to prevent them from functioning properly.
In the event of a war during mid- to late 80s, any soviet invasion would have been much less effective than commonly imagined, and this thanks to the fact that the soviet had neither the doctrine nor the kind of assets that would have been required to adapt to airland battle doctrine.
That is why any fictionalization of a soviet invasion of western germany, wich for narrative purposes need to have initial success, usually involves some kind of massive strategic surprise on behalf of the soviets and/or the omnipotent spetznaz having implausible success in sowing death and destruction, and/or the KGB going supernatural while western security agencies turn Into semi-aware carrots, none of wich will be possible in this scenario.
 
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