Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Ramp-Rat]

There can be little doubt that the various local campions of independence who rose to such prominence IOTL in the Far East, as a consequence of the collapse of British, Dutch and French colonial governments. Are ITTL, going to be especially in regards to the British and Dutch, either not heard of, or a minor footnote in the history of the campaign. Things will be different in the French colonies, as the collapse of France and the subsequent takeover by the Japanese, will see a more prevalent role for some local leaders, especially those prepared to cooperate with the Japanese. As has been pointed out by others, most of the leading opponents to colonial rule were in the case of the British or Dutch, either in prison or exile, and without Japanese assistance are going to remain locked up or unable to take part in the events now occurring. Bose who was able once he arrived in the East from his exile, was able to recruit from the numerous Indian POW’s, who rightly felt that they had been abandoned and betrayed by their British masters. A large military force which while not particularly effective, they lacked trained officers who were normally British, and were never fully trusted by the Japanese, did however show a strength of resistance to British rule. ITTL, if he is able to get out East very unlikely, he will find very few Indian POW’s to draw recruits from, as there just are not as many POW’s, and the few that there are will have a very different mindset. They will not feel that they have been betrayed or abandoned, but rather that they after putting up a good fight, and despite shortages only to be expected given the extent of the current conflict, gave a good account of themselves. He would be lucky to gather together enough men to make up a a small platoon, mostly made up of men who would have been a Sergeants nightmare, much as the British SS unit in Germany was. The retention of Burma, Malaya, Singapore and the majority of the DEI, is going to have a significant effect in the post war era, and should with luck ensure that at least three of the independence conflicts do not occur. While the conflict in FIC takes on a very different dimension, as the area is liberated from Japanese occupation, not by a Japanese collapse, with no immediate reoccupation, but rather by a steady military campaign. Note events in the Philippines which was already well down the road of independence, and had a functioning semi autonomous government, will be very different to those of the other colonial states.

RR.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Sounds too much like a Swedish super group for my liking

And ABDA was a very short lived creation - literally survived for a few tragic weeks in the early part of 1942

However with Malaya holding, and if the Dutch (plus others) hold onto at least Sumatra, I think ABDA might continue for some time, although maybe split into eastern and western commands if the Imperial Japanese manage to take Java?

 

[Stark]

I really like DUKE as a term as the alternatives; Imperial, Empire, Commonwealth, British are all flawed.

What's wrong with Imperial, it covers everything? And it was used that way during the war.

DUKE sounds like you're talking about John Wayne, it really sounds neither British nor Imperial.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Ok

What's wrong with Imperial, it covers everything? And it was used that way during the war.

DUKE sounds like you're talking about John Wayne, it really sounds neither British nor Imperial.

I don't like the acronym but to be fair Murray et al have a point. To describe Dominion (capital D) forces as "Imperial" is arguably not correct after 1931 and the Statute of Westminster when they were granted autonomy in foreign affairs. To use "Dominion and Imperial" is a bit of a mouthful.

 

[vetinari]

Ok

I don't like the acronym but to be fair Murray et al have a point. To describe Dominion (capital D) forces as "Imperial" is arguably not correct after 1931 and the Statute of Westminster when they were granted autonomy in foreign affairs. To use "Dominion and Imperial" is a bit of a mouthful.

Australia did not pass the Statute of Westminster until 1942 and it still remained subject to the UK legally (the House of Lords as an appeal court) until 1986 when further legislature was passed by the Australian Parliament. The passing of the Statute of Westminster by the UK Parliament was only half of the story, it had to also passed by the Dominion Parliament. Until that occurred the Dominion was supposedly still subject to the UK Parliament in matters of self-government and foreign affairs. Australia declared war independently of the UK against Japan and it was pointed out that was illegal until it passed the Statute, so they hurriedly passed it. They also declared war against Hungary and Romania for completeness sake.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Australia did not pass the Statute of Westminster until 1942 and it still remained subject to the UK legally (the House of Lords as an appeal court) until 1986 when further legislature was passed by the Australian Parliament. The passing of the Statute of Westminster by the UK Parliament was only half of the story, it had to also passed by the Dominion Parliament. Until that occurred the Dominion was supposedly still subject to the UK Parliament in matters of self-government and foreign affairs. Australia declared war independently of the UK against Japan and it was pointed out that was illegal until it passed the Statute, so they hurriedly passed it. They also declared war against Hungary and Romania for completeness sake.

The point still stands - in the context of this TL at the point it has reached, the use of DUKE whilst jarring to some (including me) is more correct than using the generic Imperial or Empire forces which I would usually use.

 

[Stark]

Yes, in academic terms using Imperial is maybe not precise enough. But using it on forum where substantial part of discussion is about obscure food is I think appropriate enough, as I believe everyone knows what is meant by it.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Australia did not pass the Statute of Westminster until 1942 and it still remained subject to the UK legally (the House of Lords as an appeal court) until 1986 when further legislature was passed by the Australian Parliament. The passing of the Statute of Westminster by the UK Parliament was only half of the story, it had to also passed by the Dominion Parliament. Until that occurred the Dominion was supposedly still subject to the UK Parliament in matters of self-government and foreign affairs. Australia declared war independently of the UK against Japan and it was pointed out that was illegal until it passed the Statute, so they hurriedly passed it. They also declared war against Hungary and Romania for completeness sake.

And made it retrospective to to before the declaration of war against Germany.

Just for completeness NZ didn't pass it until 1947 but you still end up with a dog's breakfast in terms of a generic collective noun for UK directed forces.

 

[allanpcameron]

Regarding Duke etc. I attempt generally to use the language used at the time. Hence I won't be using duke.
Allan.

 

[vizzer]

Regarding Duke etc. I attempt generally to use the language used at the time. Hence I won't be using duke.
Allan.

DUKE always strikes me as something that should apply to the Duchy of Grand Fenwick & not to a world spanning empire 😁

 

[Ramp-Rat]

DUKE always strikes me as something that should apply to the Duchy of Grand Fenwick & not to a world spanning empire 😁

I would note that in the end the Duchess of Grand Fenwick, a trans woman, was effectively the ruler of the world, as she was the only possessor of a Q-Bomb, and thus could dictate to the Big Boys the way things should be. 😊

 

[Cryhavoc101]

However with Malaya holding, and if the Dutch (plus others) hold onto at least Sumatra, I think ABDA might continue for some time, although maybe split into eastern and western commands if the Imperial Japanese manage to take Java?

It might ITTL

 

[Ramontxo]

I would note that in the end the Duchess of Grand Fenwick, a trans woman, was effectively the ruler of the world, as she was the only possessor of a Q-Bomb, and thus could dictate to the Big Boys the way things should be. 😊

And (more importantly) sell the wine...

 

[diesal]

Ok

I don't like the acronym but to be fair Murray et al have a point. To describe Dominion (capital D) forces as "Imperial" is arguably not correct after 1931 and the Statute of Westminster when they were granted autonomy in foreign affairs. To use "Dominion and Imperial" is a bit of a mouthful.

Australia didn’t implement the stature of Westminster till 1942 and the army sent overseas was the 2nd Australian imperial force. I doubt they would ever have been refereed to as dominion troops. I have only ever heard it used in a condescending way.

 

[edgeworthy]

To be technically accurate, His Majesty's Armed Forces would probably be the correct term.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

There are arguments for all manner of acronyms, terms and collective ideas, yet our author Allan has pointed out the most persuasive one in my view - it wasn’t used at the time.

DUKE is a creation by some very recent pop historians, with Alastair Murray’s book (his only serious work insofar as writing is concerned) being an October 2022 publication. As history books go, it is still very much a newborn, with a newborn’s narrow, limited world. Thus, ‘DUKE’ can’t claim any sort of cachet beyond a limited audience of a limited work by a passionate amateur; I am cognisant of the fact that there is another chap who uses it, but that doesn’t obviate the criticism.

DUKE is also something of a backronym at that, with UK not being anywhere near as commonly employed as general purpose nomenclature for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the 1940s as it is today; in my few decades of research, there is definitely much more use of ‘British’ as an adjective, particularly when referring to military forces and equipment in the Second World War.

On the technical constitutional level, Dominion is a correct term for Canada, NZ, Australia and South Africa in both world wars, but even in WW2, it was something of a declining employment tending towards an anachronism. It was used in formal terms, but not in the more casual sense being employed here.

Empire as a coverall term for ‘every other group of forces from British possessions, colonies, protectorates and India’ falls in a bit of a heap on that very last point. India was a distinct entity in and of itself, and to remove even any zephyr of a mention of it is a disservice. To lump them in under a generic ‘E’ is precisely the type of insulting downgrading that Murray parodies in his caricature of the Pub Landlord, he of the very patronising views of all the ‘b——y foreigners.’ India deserves better than being treated as it is in ‘DUKE’.

We’re talking about Malaya here. There are troops from India, Britain and Australia, with possible minor contributions from NZ and maybe Canada (I get confused by the multiple Malayan TLs going on). The West Africans et al came in Burma under Slim.

The different corps can be described as their countries and, should it be necessary to give them a collective name, British Empire. At a pinch, British Commonwealth could be used without leaping through too many hoops or treading on toes.

There is a danger in simply repeating a term - the nature of the Internet. An idea or terms starts to spread and, through the vagaries of the modern Internet, becomes a truth. Consider how some chaps got sucked into calling the M113 the ‘Gavin’, when it was only ever the idea of one unpleasant, disturbed man; it made it onto Wikipedia before being thankfully purged. Another example is the H-45 battleship design, which jumped from a completely fictional idea on Warships Projects Fictional/Alternate History Board to oft cited history, replete with a Wikipedia article and a book on it.

With AI combing the web to create its dystopian works, some poor slack high school student in the future is going to end up with DUKE references in his assignment if we don’t step firmly on it now. Won’t somebody think of the children?!

Facetious last bit of hyperbole aside, DUKE has a tiny base that know about it, let alone uses it; it isn’t accurate to the terminology of the time; it writes India and Australia out of their own military history; and is inferior to other, simpler terms. Plus the author doesn’t use it.

 

[allanpcameron]

2 April 1942. London.

It wasn’t unusual, but for Alan Brooke, meetings with the Prime Minister, in this case starting at 10.30pm and running until, looking at his watch, 1am, were tiring and trying. After the Cabinet meeting at 6pm, a hurried dinner, and back to Downing Street, as usual Churchill was full of questions, theories, flights of fancy and, worst of all, petulant if confronted with stark reality.

The question on many peoples’ minds was what could be done to save Russia. There had been rallies, from the Albert Hall to Trafalgar Square, with vast crowds shouting for a ‘second front’ now. The Beaverbrook press was stoking up the fires, looking for a new ‘western front’. Mountbatten’s Combined Operations had been pushing for a landing in the Cherbourg area, even though this would be out with air cover from southern Britain. The only real chance of a lodgment would be in the Pas de Calais, but Brooke was clear that there was nothing like the size of force that could cross the channel that would actually force the Germans to withdraw troops from Russia. The best that could be hoped for was bringing elements of the Luftwaffe back to France. All the RAF’s Rhubarbs and Ramrod operations were doing very little except wearing down the RAF and losing valuable pilots and aircraft which would be better off in the Middle or Far East.

Alan Brooke knew that he had in Britain about 10 Divisions that were capable of action. Even if there were enough ships to do it, sending them off to France would result surely in their destruction, and leave Britain vulnerable again. Reviewing the list of Corps and Divisional commanders, he felt that half of them lacked drive, character, determination and power of leadership. Even if he fired them, there were none could take their place that were any better. The loss of so many of the best officers in the last war meant that the generation that should now be commanding the Army were absent.

As he walked back to his quarters, the Chief of the Imperial General Staff contemplated the difficulty of having a democracy fighting a war with a dictatorship. Especially since the Government is powerless to some degree having only one big man in it, and him a grave danger in many respects. Party politics and interests still override larger war issues. Petty jealousies, politicians who know little of war, but think themselves great strategists, confuse issues, affect decisions, and convert simple problems and plans into confused tangles and hopeless confusion.

Much of this was written in his diary before getting to bed. As tired as he was, he couldn’t help reflecting on the current situation that he’d reported on at Cabinet and spoke at length with the Prime Minister. In a couple of weeks General Marshall and his American delegation were due to arrive for talks and working out plans for the American build up towards an invasion of France.
Much of this was taken from but a couple of days out:

Alanbrooke War Diaries 1939-1945: Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke​

 

[Look More Closely Later]

2 April 1942. London.

It wasn’t unusual, but for Alan Brooke, meetings with the Prime Minister, in this case starting at 10.30pm and running until, looking at his watch, 1am, were tiring and trying. After the Cabinet meeting at 6pm, a hurried dinner, and back to Downing Street, as usual Churchill was full of questions, theories, flights of fancy and, worst of all, petulant if confronted with stark reality.

The question on many peoples’ minds was what could be done to save Russia. There had been rallies, from the Albert Hall to Trafalgar Square, with vast crowds shouting for a ‘second front’ now. The Beaverbrook press was stoking up the fires, looking for a new ‘western front’. Mountbatten’s Combined Operations had been pushing for a landing in the Cherbourg area, even though this would be out with air cover from southern Britain. The only real chance of a lodgment would be in the Pas de Calais, but Brooke was clear that there was nothing like the size of force that could cross the channel that would actually force the Germans to withdraw troops from Russia. The best that could be hoped for was bringing elements of the Luftwaffe back to France. All the RAF’s Rhubarbs and Ramrod operations were doing very little except wearing down the RAF and losing valuable pilots and aircraft which would be better off in the Middle or Far East.

Alan Brooke knew that he had in Britain about 10 Divisions that were capable of action. Even if there were enough ships to do it, sending them off to France would result surely in their destruction, and leave Britain vulnerable again. Reviewing the list of Corps and Divisional commanders, he felt that half of them lacked drive, character, determination and power of leadership. Even if he fired them, there were none could take their place that were any better. The loss of so many of the best officers in the last war meant that the generation that should now be commanding the Army were absent.

As he walked back to his quarters, the Chief of the Imperial General Staff contemplated the difficulty of having a democracy fighting a war with a dictatorship. Especially since the Government is powerless to some degree having only one big man in it, and him a grave danger in many respects. Party politics and interests still override larger war issues. Petty jealousies, politicians who know little of war, but think themselves great strategists, confuse issues, affect decisions, and convert simple problems and plans into confused tangles and hopeless confusion.

Much of this was written in his diary before getting to bed. As tired as he was, he couldn’t help reflecting on the current situation that he’d reported on at Cabinet and spoke at length with the Prime Minister. In a couple of weeks General Marshall and his American delegation were due to arrive for talks and working out plans for the American build up towards an invasion of France.
Much of this was taken from but a couple of days out:

Alanbrooke War Diaries 1939-1945: Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke​

They're going to have to do Norway, if the Vichy-French won't flip, aren't they?
Pull together every carrier not needed for escort duty and go for Scandinavia.
Oh well, at least the Royal Navy has some experience of attempting a contested landing at Narvik...

 

[justinmil22]

if they do Norway that puts pressure on Sweden and the iron trade and it brings them within spitting distance of denmark

 

[JWilly48519]

(Re)capturing Narvik would stop the German war machine for at least four months as soon as winter came. The Gulf of Bothnia freezes over most winters, and well into the spring. That's why the railroad was built from the iron mines to Narvik in the first place...because Narvik, thanks to the Gulf Stream, is an ice free port all winter long.

No iron ore, no steel. No steel, no weapons production.