Second Republic of the United States

What if the Radical Republicans during the Civil War came to believe the Constitution had failed and was partly to blame for the war and thus after the Union's victory, instead of seeking amendments, they ensured a new Constitutional Convention was formed to create a "more perfect union"? What would the U.S.'s second (or third if you count the U.S. during the Revolution and Articles of Confederation as a separate entity) republic be like?
 
I can't imagine a situation in which the Radical Republicans would have called a Constitutional Convention in the middle of the war. For one thing, just calling a convention would require 22 state legislatures to approve a convention just to have it. There's no way that would happen.

The were some Radicals who saw the Constitution as fundamentally flawed and might have welcomed a total rewrite, but it would just be the fevered dreams of madmen.
 
I can't imagine a situation in which the Radical Republicans would have called a Constitutional Convention in the middle of the war. For one thing, just calling a convention would require 22 state legislatures to approve a convention just to have it. There's no way that would happen.

The were some Radicals who saw the Constitution as fundamentally flawed and might have welcomed a total rewrite, but it would just be the fevered dreams of madmen.

I didn't say in the scenario they called it during the war. I said they called it after the Union's victory, but they came to believe the Constitution failed during the war.
 
I didn't say in the scenario they called it during the war. I said they called it after the Union's victory, but they came to believe the Constitution failed during the war.

Ah sorry. Though that doesn't really change my response much. For one thing, the all-important thirteenth amendment banning slavery passed both houses of Congress before the end of the war. So this scenario would require they give up an achievable goal of banning slavery in a flawed Constitution and take a dice roll on a convention. Secondly, I don't see them getting enough state legislatures voting for it. And even if they did, there's major issues of legitimacy that would arise if this all was done without the approval of Southern legislatures or with their approval through coercion. Even if all that succeeded, the convention would not only have to successfully draft a Constitution, but it would have to be ratified. At so many points they run the risk of simply getting nothing done, walking away with a constitution they're even less satisfied with, and in the worst case scenario, renewed civil war.
 
They would have to hold down the flaky border states and put down the copperheads who would rise up after such a proclamation. The Union probably wouldn't survive.
 
Ah sorry. Though that doesn't really change my response much. For one thing, the all-important thirteenth amendment banning slavery passed both houses of Congress before the end of the war. So this scenario would require they give up an achievable goal of banning slavery in a flawed Constitution and take a dice roll on a convention. Secondly, I don't see them getting enough state legislatures voting for it. And even if they did, there's major issues of legitimacy that would arise if this all was done without the approval of Southern legislatures or with their approval through coercion. Even if all that succeeded, the convention would not only have to successfully draft a Constitution, but it would have to be ratified. At so many points they run the risk of simply getting nothing done, walking away with a constitution they're even less satisfied with, and in the worst case scenario, renewed civil war.

Considering OTL's Reconstruction and the violence that happened during it, I doubt the Radical Republicans would be that reluctant to force a new Constitution down the South's throat. They viewed the former Confederates as a bunch of rebellious traitors who deserved whatever punishment they got. Also, considering that the founding fathers made the process easier to ratify the Constitution than it had been to amend the Articles of Confederation (which required the approval of all thirteen states), a similar thing could be done with the process to ratify a new constitution since that precedent had already been set. As far as the risks, if the Radical Republicans truly came to believe the Constitution had failed, I see no reason to believe that they wouldn't think it worth the risk to create a better one or at the very least they would have sought more than the 3 amendments that were passed in OTL.
 
Again, the border states would consider this the last straw and rebel, while the copperheads and urban areas would revolt over having to send their sons out to perpetually occupy the south in the perceived name of the Negro. Such an action would seem to justify the earlier secessions, and Dixie could reorganize a guerrilla resistance if the plantation owners get more ideologically self destructive.
 
Again, the border states would consider this the last straw and rebel, while the copperheads and urban areas would revolt over having to send their sons out to perpetually occupy the south in the perceived name of the Negro. Such an action would seem to justify the earlier secessions, and Dixie could reorganize a guerrilla resistance if the plantation owners get more ideologically self destructive.

I get what you're saying about the copperheads, but what exactly would the border states have a problem with as long as they themselves aren't mistreated? Why would they feel threatened by a new constitution? The Radical Republicans would most likely be willing to try to assuage any fears the border states would have.
 
They almost seceded along with the Confederacy, and as soon as they think Lincoln has become a tyrant or their state rights are going away they will try to break out.
 
They almost seceded along with the Confederacy, and as soon as they think Lincoln has become a tyrant or their state rights are going away they will try to break out.

The Radical Republicans would be more willing to try to work with and make compromises with the border states than the former Confederates. I'm not suggesting it would be an easy process, but I don't see why a stronger union couldn't be formed that still protected states' rights via a new constitution during that time period.
 
The problem is that the border states were more democratic and slaver leaning and wouldn't enjoy the mainly northern radical republicans shaping the country in their image.
 
Maybe more dead enders and a more drawn out end of the war in which southern hardliners alienate more of the south by doing things like shooting "defeatists?"
 
The problem is that the border states were more democratic and slaver leaning and wouldn't enjoy the mainly northern radical republicans shaping the country in their image.

I get that, but that still doesn't mean compromises couldn't be made. I mean, a bloody war had just been fought so I doubt the border states would try to secede, which would cause another war, or at least not as a first resort. They would instead either try to block a Constitutional Convention from happening or if that failed try to get measures favorable to them in a new constitution as part of a compromise in return for their support. Only if the Radical Republicans were totally unreasonable, would secession and thus a new war come into play.
 
The Radical Republicans would be more willing to try to work with and make compromises with the border states than the former Confederates. I'm not suggesting it would be an easy process, but I don't see why a stronger union couldn't be formed that still protected states' rights via a new constitution during that time period.

I think the thing is that anything that would greatly enrage the defeated confederate states would also inflame the border states.

Though to be honest I'm not sure what sort of constitutional convention changes everyone is thinking of here.
 
How the Border States react to the Radical Republicans calling a constitutional convention mainly depends on what changes the Radicals are calling for and then what they propose at the convention. With this is mind I doubt that the most extreme proposals would be put forward before the convention for fear of scaring off the Border States and northern moderates and if they are brought up at the convention they would be squashed. The Border States can probably get enough delegates together to stalemate any constitution that the dislike and would be perfectly happy to continue with the current constitution. So for the Radical Republicans to get anything out of the constitution they would need present a vision that all the states (well all loyal states) can support.
 
I think this scenario isn't as far-fetched as people are making out. If the thirteenth amendment gets blocked in Congress, which could have happened, then a convention could well be on the cards. And after being completely devastated by the war, I can't see the Southern states rising up again on a procedural issue. That would only happen depending on what specific changes are made at the convention.
 
Considering OTL's Reconstruction and the violence that happened during it, I doubt the Radical Republicans would be that reluctant to force a new Constitution down the South's throat. They viewed the former Confederates as a bunch of rebellious traitors who deserved whatever punishment they got. Also, considering that the founding fathers made the process easier to ratify the Constitution than it had been to amend the Articles of Confederation (which required the approval of all thirteen states), a similar thing could be done with the process to ratify a new constitution since that precedent had already been set. As far as the risks, if the Radical Republicans truly came to believe the Constitution had failed, I see no reason to believe that they wouldn't think it worth the risk to create a better one or at the very least they would have sought more than the 3 amendments that were passed in OTL.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree that the Radical Republicans certainly believed that the Southern states were entitled to nothing. However, we're only talking about one wing of one party. Most Americans did not feel this way (not even Lincoln). In fact, the Radicals were regularly blocked from imposing the kind of harsh penalties against the South that they would have liked.

I am not even sure that even the Thirteenth Amendment would have passed Congress after a Confederate surrender let alone getting the necessary number of states to call for a constitutional convention.

I think this scenario isn't as far-fetched as people are making out. If the thirteenth amendment gets blocked in Congress, which could have happened, then a convention could well be on the cards. And after being completely devastated by the war, I can't see the Southern states rising up again on a procedural issue. That would only happen depending on what specific changes are made at the convention.
This is probably the only scenario where I could see a convention being called.

But let's consider the sequence of events that would have to occur for a Second Republic:

1) 2/3rds of the states would have to call for a convention. Remember... Congress cannot call the convention. It has to come from the states. So even once the Republicans gained the two-thirds majorities in both Houses of Congress in 1866, they were still powerless to call a convention (though they could and did pass new amendments). Many state legislatures would be resistant to the idea of a convention and especially if the many of the people in favor of it were Radical Republicans.

2) Second, the delegates would have to be chosen and the convention would have to be convened. This becomes quite a thorny issue because the Constitution does not specify who can be considered as delegates or how many delegates each state would be allowed. Some states may even boycott the entire process if the Republicans are handpicking southern delegates. While it seems trivial, this selection process could kill the whole project right there.

3) The convention has to actually draft a workable document. It is quite possible for the convention to leave completely empty-handed if they are hopelessly deadlocked. Because a failure to reach an agreement simply results in the status quo being maintained, conservatives have little inclination to reach an agreement. Contrast that with the 1787 convention where virtually everyone present agreed that the status quo was unacceptable even if they strongly disagreed over what should replace it.

4) 3/4ths of the state legislatures must accept the new Constitution. This next step depends largely on what exactly is in the new draft of the constitution. If the Radicals dominate the convention, you can be sure it will be roundly rejected by the South and the border states. More likely than not, a newly-drafted constitution in the wake of the war will include many caveats to the first, second, fourth, and sixth amendments to make dealing with future rebellions and overseeing Reconstruction more expedient.

If Lincoln is still assassinated in this timeline, it is quite possible the succession to the office of President would have been codified a hundred years earlier.

The potential for renewed civil war is not just with the crushed Southern states. Depending on the content of the new constitution, other states might be completely unwilling to accept it as well. I don't think this would be an issue though because obviously I think a new constitution would have been defeated much earlier in the process.
 
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