Second American Civil War - 1993

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My goal was to create a (relatively) plausible situation which could lead to a confrontation between a state (or a group of states, in this case) and the United States federal government in the 1990s. Hopefully, I have achieved a story which is at least possible, if not plausible or likely. So, with that said, here we go...

First, I began by forming the conclusion that the best possible time for a rebellion/civil war/confrontation/etc. is the period between 1992 and 1995. Why? Consider the civil strife of the period (Waco, L.A., OK City, Ruby Ridge, etc.); consider the third party success of Ross Perot; and, consider the radical political shift from a Republican government to a Democratic one. So, the time period is nailed down.

Second, I need to choose the states. Well, I figured the best choice would be to choose a combination of the homes of OTL’s militia movements, and the vote percentage for Ross Perot. That leaves us with Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, (eastern) Washington, and (eastern) Oregon. For the sake of convenience, I’m going to call this group the Mountain ALLiance (or MALL; I don’t want to have to rewrite the list again). Now, every alliance needs a leader. For this, I’m going to simply look at a map of the US, and the states of the MALL, and pick the one in the geographic center. That’d be Idaho. So, we have the location nailed down.

Now we need a reason for a conflict. This is by far the most difficult aspect. However, we do have several things we could use. So, I’m going to go with a more organized, larger militia movement. In order to get a larger, better organized militia movement we’re going to need more perceived government oppression. That’s going to require, for these radical right groups, a more liberal (and, therefore, generally larger) government. In other words, we need a different President. I think I have a solution for that, but I’ll hold off for a little later. Now, let’s have them, say, break the siege of Waco. That just may provide the spark I need. Now, before you argue, bare with me for awhile.

Okay, now that we’ve got the bare facts covered, I’ll get into a (somewhat) plausible story...

The year is 1969. This is our POD. On Chappaquiddick Island, Massachusetts, a young Senator Edward Kennedy is driving drunk. He, however, concentrates harder going over the bridge. He instead hits a tree a quarter-mile down the road. Mary Jo Kopechne does not die and is instead just injured, but, because Kennedy was driving drunk, he is temporarily out of the running for the Presidential nomination. He still loses his status as the Majority Whip.

Now, half way around the world, three young men come together for the first time on a military base outside of Nha Trang. Douglas Latham, Nathan Rhodes, and James Roberts, are all members of the U.S. Army and are all from the state of Idaho. In OTL, say, two of them are killed and one loses a leg. In this ATL, not one is even injured. However, Roberts, catches a soldier attempting to “frag” his officer, Nathan Rhodes, and beats the soldier the half to death. Roberts, despite saving the officers life, Roberts is dishonorably discharged in 1971, the same year Rhodes and Latham return home. Rhodes, owing his life to Roberts, vows he will go to any length to help the young man. Upon returning to America, the three men are stunned by the treatment afforded them by the American populace and blame their own government for: A) treating Roberts wrongly, and B) losing the war.

The next decade and a half go almost identically as in OTL for the nation as a whole. For the three men, however, life deals them a series of surprising choices. Douglas Latham, who served with Rhodes throughout the war and is dedicated to the man to the extreme, is of the lower class. He comes home, without an education, and in a cruel twist of fate, the government screws him. He never receives the money to go to college, so he decides to stay in the military (or, at least, the Idaho National Guard). As a full time job, Latham is employed by Rhodes, whose father, a banker, left him truckloads of money. Rhodes happens to have bought a single gun store, which over the two decades, Rhodes builds into one of the largest companies in the state of Idaho, with chains in nearly every city/town with a population over 20,000, as well as several in neighboring states. Rhodes, by the way, turns out to be an excellent orator and politician, in general.

Meanwhile, our friend James Roberts, screwed royally by the U.S. government, creates his own militia organization. Unlike others, however, Roberts is determined to keep his group small. He demands military excellence from all the militiamen. Each unit of the American Liberation Front (ALF) is composed of about 20 men, and is, generally, led by a former regular soldier. By 1990, the ALF is a well-disciplined “ghost army” of about 700 men, mainly from Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana. The ALF, surprise, surprise, is well-armed – by weapons from the Rhodes chain of gun stores.

Now, the year is 1991, and two elections are heating up. The first is the Presidential election of 1992. The candidates are: George Bush (R), Ross Perot (Reform), and – Edward Kennedy (D). In 1992, Kennedy will edge by in a squeaker, with Perot splitting the Republican vote. In Idaho, the race for the Governor’s office heats up. The winner: Nathan Rhodes, successful businessman and Republican. From the get-go, Governor Rhodes opposes the actions of the federal government. Meanwhile, Ruby Ridge occurs (assume butterflies haven’t eliminated it), outraging both Rhodes, and the citizenry of Idaho – not to mention the ALF and James Roberts.

Now, the moment of truth. It is 1993. James Roberts commands a private army of 800 well-armed militiamen. Nathan Rhodes is the Governor of Idaho. Douglas Latham is the Adjutant General of the Idaho National Guard. The siege of Waco begins. Soon, the ALF is rearmed and on the move. The break the siege on its 36th day. They exchange fire with the ATF and FBI, before escaping. Ten ALF members, however, are captured upon their return to Idaho. They are held in Idaho. Rhodes makes a scene. The populace of the region views these 10 men as near heroes, especially considering how large the government is growing under Kennedy. The prosecutors request a change in venue. They are granted that change to San Francisco. Rhodes is outraged. James Roberts is appointed Attorney General by Rhodes.

He orders the State Police to expel all federal agents from the state of Idaho, saying that the men’s constitutional rights to a fair trial are being violated. The state police expel those federal officers. The National Guard, scared as to the future, are ordered to tighten down on the weapons caches in Idaho. They reluctantly agree, so that the ammunition isn’t stolen by “militia groups.” The US Army lands a battalion of the 82nd Airborne outside of Boise. In the confusion of the landing, a shot erupts from the federal lines. The National Guardsmen open fire nervously. Kennedy attempts to federalize the NG, but Latham ignores the order. Citing the act of aggression, Wyoming and Montana agree to throw federal agents out of their states as well. The National Guards are beginning to become coordinated. Kennedy sends an armored brigade north from Colorado into Wyoming. The column is attacked by armored elements of the NG and by A-10 ground attack fighters of the MALL. In Oregon and Washington, pro-MALL Governors are elected, pleasing the eastern populaces. The two states try to negotiate a peaceful arrangement, but neither side will back down. The two states are forced to choose a side – and lean towards the MALL. Utah and Nevada are leaning that way as well.

Bam. Civil War.

So what do you think? I know its not exactly the most probable outcome, but I think it’s a fairly possible one...
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Its rather well written and nicely thought thru, right up to the point where the NG, or even the State Police, goes along with going violently against the Federal Government. Most US citizens see themselves as...uh...US citizens and are really hesitant about shooting other US citizens for any reason, no matter how heroic they see these people.

Which is sorta the second problem, the Waco "Whackos" kind of speaks for itself and the militias aren't held in that high an esteem by most people either. The fact that the government is larger and more repressive than our own wouldn't necessarily make these very oppressive organizations any more attractive as alternatives. I also find it difficult to accept that the NG/SP would rebel in the absence of a long standing anti federal government grassroots movement with considerable longevity and standing. Additionally, most people are not revolutionaries and will not take to the streets until the government collapses first and they have nothing to lose.

I'm not saying that some might not go along with the governor over the President, but not all, and once you have decided that your immediate commander is not acting legally you become a very unreliable soldier, esp if there are others like you and you and they are aware of each other. The Regulars, OTOH would have little dispute in their minds about the legality of their actions.

If you could make the government much more repressive over a longer period of time, and offer a somewhat more attractive alternative than paramilitary malcontents and religious fanatics, then throw in some sort of crises which the government cannot handle...
 
Read State of Disobedience. Pretty much what you're going for.

Walter_Kaufmann said:
My goal was to create a (relatively) plausible situation which could lead to a confrontation between a state (or a group of states, in this case) and the United States federal government in the 1990s.
 
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NapoleonXIV said:
Its rather well written and nicely thought thru, right up to the point where the NG, or even the State Police, goes along with going violently against the Federal Government. Most US citizens see themselves as...uh...US citizens and are really hesitant about shooting other US citizens for any reason, no matter how heroic they see these people.

Which is sorta the second problem, the Waco "Whackos" kind of speaks for itself and the militias aren't held in that high an esteem by most people either. The fact that the government is larger and more repressive than our own wouldn't necessarily make these very oppressive organizations any more attractive as alternatives. I also find it difficult to accept that the NG/SP would rebel in the absence of a long standing anti federal government grassroots movement with considerable longevity and standing. Additionally, most people are not revolutionaries and will not take to the streets until the government collapses first and they have nothing to lose.

I'm not saying that some might not go along with the governor over the President, but not all, and once you have decided that your immediate commander is not acting legally you become a very unreliable soldier, esp if there are others like you and you and they are aware of each other. The Regulars, OTOH would have little dispute in their minds about the legality of their actions.

If you could make the government much more repressive over a longer period of time, and offer a somewhat more attractive alternative than paramilitary malcontents and religious fanatics, then throw in some sort of crises which the government cannot handle...

Guys coming out of the Spec Ops community might be more inclined to join militia movements, with some support from a State's NG. Independent thinkers with a strong sense of what is right and wrong, they might lend their services. Get some Delta Force retirees together and have them build a new underground unit...
 
Interesting TL, but how exactly do the MALL militiamen acquire A10 Warthogs ? Would they be able to that easily take over Mountain Home AFB in Idaho and other airfields within the MALL states ? Wouldn't the other federalised NG units from Colorado be able to call on air support from their own ANG assets ?

Another thing- were the Michigan Militia 'Wolverines' around in 1993 ? Would they have tried to make a contribution to the MALL insurrection ?

quote: Guys coming out of the Spec Ops community might be more inclined to join militia movements, with some support from a State's NG.

You sure about that ? That's what the likes of Stephen Barry, a retired Green Beret sgt and white supremacist based in North Carolina, and his so-called Special Forces Underground would have you believe, but according to most vets on the BHD site whom I contacted, it's just an unfair and insulting myth and stereotype that SOCOM is racist and dominated by KKK types. There are some bigots within the specops community, which is still predominantly white, but they're only a very small minority. And what about the presence of Delta operators at Waco, who were there to provide special assistance to the BATF and FBI agents ? Then again, why not put Timothy McVeigh (who tried out for SF after serving with the 1st ID in the GW, but was rejected) and other disillusioned Army vets like him into the picture too ?
 
Melvin Loh said:
quote: Guys coming out of the Spec Ops community might be more inclined to join militia movements, with some support from a State's NG.

You sure about that ? That's what the likes of Stephen Barry, a retired Green Beret sgt and white supremacist based in North Carolina, and his so-called Special Forces Underground would have you believe, but according to most vets on the BHD site whom I contacted, it's just an unfair and insulting myth and stereotype that SOCOM is racist and dominated by KKK types. There are some bigots within the specops community, which is still predominantly white, but they're only a very small minority. And what about the presence of Delta operators at Waco, who were there to provide special assistance to the BATF and FBI agents ? Then again, why not put Timothy McVeigh (who tried out for SF after serving with the 1st ID in the GW, but was rejected) and other disillusioned Army vets like him into the picture too ?

Pretty sure about that, especially if they see the country they know and love going down the toilet.

Melvin Loh said:
You sure about that ? That's what the likes of Stephen Barry, a retired Green Beret sgt and white supremacist based in North Carolina, and his so-called Special Forces Underground would have you believe, but according to most vets on the BHD site whom I contacted, it's just an unfair and insulting myth and stereotype that SOCOM is racist and dominated by KKK types. There are some bigots within the specops community, which is still predominantly white, but they're only a very small minority.

You're making an assumption on who I was talking about :) I wasn't talking at all about the white indentity/supremicist movement. Our Spec Ops community contains some of the best and most honorable men our nation can produce and for the most part they know exactly what they are fighting for. If they see the Federal Government erroding hard won freedoms and generally making a mockery of the Constitution (that requires far more expansion and provocation than Walter Kaufmann's ATL, admittedly), they may feel compelled to act.
 

Chris

Banned
Intereresting idea, please keep going. I'll host an essay if you want to write one.

Chris
 
Aryan Nations role ?

Now, what's the role of the white supremacist groups running around in the mountain states, like Aryan Nations, Hammerskins, WCC, etc ? Do they all start to play a prominent part in the MALL rebellion against the fed govt ? And what happens to all the ppl from ethnic minorities (blacks, native Americans, Hispanics, Asians) living in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and eastern Oregon (though with the exception of Indians, their nos. are relatively small) ? Is it a serious possibility that attempts at ethnic cleansing will occur in the MALL-controlled states, and how will the MALL govt react ? In this scenario, do the ex-SOF operators who come along to support MALL, express their total disgust at the white supremacists' perversion of freedom and democracy, and either leave this cause or conduct their own guerilla campaign against the militia groups ?
 

Chris

Banned
Interesting idea. Lets have a look:

What if the feds were to discover a plot to kill black people, run by the leader of a milita group. Worried about the publicity, the FBI sends in a swat team carried on helicoptors to the militia compound. Unluckily for them, the leader is a major paranoid and has the place carefully guarded. the swat team arrives and is fired upon. In the confustion, a lot of innocents are killed, perhaps by gunship rockets or a falling helicoptor. The milita men escape and head underground.

The state government goes balistic. Crowds are demanding the that the FBI agents be hung, drawn, qauthers, savaged by a rampaging elephant, etc. The state governmer demands that the FBI clear every operation with his office first, while attempting to track down the rest of the milita.

The milita underground sees their worst fears confrimed. They start a campaign of grualla war against federal targets and try to rasie support. many other milita movements see the attack as the first step in a crackdown and join the mayhem. Their attacks are uncoordinated enough so that a pattern cannot be seen.

Pressed by all sides, the state govener refuses to allow any further federal agenst on his state. The national guard is deployed to occupy any federal army base and other installations. Roads are blocked. The governer also askes that states senators to demand support - the disorder is leading to attacks on state citizens as well.

Chris
 
Ok, I'll give a go at responding.

Melvin Loh said:
Now, what's the role of the white supremacist groups running around in the mountain states, like Aryan Nations, Hammerskins, WCC, etc ? Do they all start to play a prominent part in the MALL rebellion against the fed govt?

Of course you have to remember the racist "patriotic" factions only make up a fraction of the militia groups and the Idaho/Montana/Oregon region isn't exactly the center of the racist movement. I would suspect most of them are down South. Those two reasons together mean that they play a supporting role at best. None of the three major personalities in the rebellion seems connected to those groups.

Melvin Loh said:
And what happens to all the ppl from ethnic minorities (blacks, native Americans, Hispanics, Asians) living in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and eastern Oregon (though with the exception of Indians, their nos. are relatively small)?

You're talking about a small minority in a region that already has a fairly low population density. Active persecution is going to be hard when people live so far apart and your racist organizations are so separated from the general population anyway. You might see some localized spikes of hate crimes, but State authorities are still around.

Melvin Loh said:
Is it a serious possibility that attempts at ethnic cleansing will occur in the MALL-controlled states, and how will the MALL govt react?

They don't have the numbers or regional support to pull it off. And you're average household in the region is as well armed as any small militia unit. If someone is stupid enough to try some sort of death camp round up (which someone is bound to try), you're going to see hunting season on white supremacists.

Melvin Loh said:
In this scenario, do the ex-SOF operators who come along to support MALL, express their total disgust at the white supremacists' perversion of freedom and democracy, and either leave this cause or conduct their own guerilla campaign against the militia groups ?

It would be a matter of a series of lightening raids to neutralize the largest groups, if those groups tried anything. Some of them are going to be too paranoid to come out, waiting for Armageddon and all. Others will form an alliance with MALL out of convenience and be smart enough not to try anything too stupid (the smartest ones are pragmatists).
 
Melvin, just to clarify things the way I see the events playing out...

This is in no way a race-related rebellion. There are no racial reasons for the rebellion. It's an example of the people of the MALL acting to preserve the private rights of both states and individuals, all of which they perceive to be threatened by the Kennedy administration. It's about standing up for the population of the MALL, and will include all races (whether black, white, Asian, Mexican, or Indian). The white-supremecy groups will play no real part, as the orchestraters of the MALL (Rhodes, Latham, and Roberts) are opposed to these groups. Don't get me wrong, these men are NOT bad people (although Roberts is slightly shady), they are initially just frustrated with the federal government. Things will spiral out of their control rapidly, and the three men will be forced to keep up with the passions of a largely inflamed population.
 
Melvin Loh said:
Interesting TL, but how exactly do the MALL militiamen acquire A10 Warthogs ? Would they be able to that easily take over Mountain Home AFB in Idaho and other airfields within the MALL states ? Wouldn't the other federalised NG units from Colorado be able to call on air support from their own ANG assets ?

Another thing- were the Michigan Militia 'Wolverines' around in 1993 ? Would they have tried to make a contribution to the MALL insurrection ?

Well, the A10's would belong to the National Guard. There has to be an inflation of state/regional pride. The best way for this, IMHO, is to have the federal government lash out first. Perhaps a bomb targeted for a NG facility to ruin those jets (at this point, the AF doesn't plan on hurting anyone, as there are no National Guardsmen around) misses and hits a city. I think Boise would be a good bet. Perhaps they strike at Gowen Field which is right on the outskirts, the bomb is on the fritz, misses the base completely, hits a school, and kills 200 kids. First of all, this will serve to enrage the population of the MALL and will score a decisive victory, in some ways, for Rhodes's government. Second, this will steel the NG for the fight that they are facing. Assume that Latham is a capable operator, and he plays the NG like a fiddle, arousing a great amount of state/regional pride...and we could be on our way to a full scale rebellion. Remember, a small thing can spiral out of control, especially with two groups (the MALL leaders, and the Kennedy administration) so opposed and opposite to one another.

Just to clear things up about something else, as well. When you think of the ALF, think not of the militia groups of OTL, but of a second-rate special forces group. Not, obviously, quite as good as the Green Berets, but good nonetheless. Militias of OTL are generally composed of old or fat men, and young boys acting like men. Their maneuvers are nothing more than an excuse to drink and take potshots at squirrels. They are by no means committed to anything in particular. Sure they talk a good game, but slap them once, and they're out. The ALF is the opposite. The ALF drills like a military unit, denies entry into the group and is well organized. The spine of the group is a core of about 100 ex-soldiers with a gripe with the government. They are committed to what they do, and enforce rules rigidly. They are not there to drink, they are there to perform. They expect nothing less than the best of both mental and physical abilities from their "soldiers." That said, many are in their late thirties to late forties. Don't forget, I have James Roberts become the Attorney General of Idaho. As soon as the rebellion is under way, I expect to see them brought up as state police. Many of the actual state police (many of whom are younger), along with the youngest of the ALF, will join up with the National Guard.

I expect groups like the Michigan Militia to play a role only if Rhodes is smart. I'd expect him to use the group to his advantage while staying distant from them. That said, I think the best way to employ the so-called "Michigan Militia" is to use them to, oh, take potshots at federal convoys heading west. Other than that, I don't see them playing a part, as all three of the leaders are ex-Spec Ops soldiers, they will have a distinct disdain for the slovenly militias.
 
NapoleonXIV said:
Its rather well written and nicely thought thru, right up to the point where the NG, or even the State Police, goes along with going violently against the Federal Government. Most US citizens see themselves as...uh...US citizens and are really hesitant about shooting other US citizens for any reason, no matter how heroic they see these people.

See in an earlier message about the bombing of a NG base and the accidental hit on a school. That will take care of that problem, for the most part. Don't forget, up until Lexington, the only people taking a stand were those radicals in the city of Boston. Yet, the first shots (and later victory at Concord) were not fired by these radicals, they were fired by the average farmers, the men who before didn't give much of a care what either the British or the radicals did...
 
BTW, this is how I envision national support for the MALL, by support, I mean, phsychological support, not actively sending physical help: (sorry if it's a little fuzzy)

Obviously, the darker and thicker the green, the more support.
 

Chris

Banned
COOL! My one thought is that the rebellion might lead to a collision with Canada. Please could I get a fully worked out version of this for the CTT?

Chris
 
I have to say I not to pleased Oregon is part of your little civil war. Of course thats Eastern Oregon so I could see those loons doing something crazy.
 
Chris said:
COOL! My one thought is that the rebellion might lead to a collision with Canada. Please could I get a fully worked out version of this for the CTT?

Hmm...funny, I was thinking something along those lines. I was thinking that the people of western Canada (that is, BC and Alberta), whose economy is closely linked with the US economy across the border (which would be the MALL states) could provide some level of support to the MALL. If the US tries to interdict an arms dealer selling weapons to the MALL from Saskatchewan or some such, perhaps the Canadians defend their people, escalating the situation and perhaps leading to a collision if all goes wrong (or right, depending on your view). If Canada sides with the MALL, perhaps Alaska will also. Hmm, around this time, perhaps we'll see Quebec declare independence if Canada gets into the scuffle. Now that would be interesting: Canada and an American rebel nation-state VS. America and a Canadian rebel nation-state.

As for a fully worked out version, I believe david3565 is going to give it a shot, so he's probably the person to talk to. However, I'm planning a very detailed version in my head to write out in case he decides against writing the full story.
 

Susano

Banned
There are strong independance movements in west canada, too, though AFAIK. I think THOSE would try to support MALL - and thus Canada had every reason NOT to intervene if the USA chased them.
Lets suppose this,a nd the MALL thing in general gives a boost to western independance movemnts. Qubec votes to become independant, and shortly afterwards, British Columbia, Alberta, Sasketatchwan and maybe Manitoba do so ,too...
Somehow I think it will end more peacefulyl in Canda, which could tighten pressure on the USA to end their own little secession more peacefully, too.
 
Susano said:
There are strong independance movements in west canada, too, though AFAIK. I think THOSE would try to support MALL - and thus Canada had every reason NOT to intervene if the USA chased them.

Hmm...you have a point, but, there's another side to this. Even if the Americans were just chasing a radical independence group, I would think they would have no choice but to intervene. Were they not to, it would show weakness on the side of the Canadian government (leading to them being voted from power) AND it would provide these strong independence movements with the boost they need to declare independence. After all, these groups could point to the Canadian government's lack of action when citizens of its own nation were attacked by a foreign power. The independence groups would just point to this and they would gain a lot more power. Thus, the Canadian government, IMHO, would be forced to act on behalf of its citizens... But, then again, maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
 
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