What if Sweden and Norway didn't declare neutrality (Or non-belligerent) in the Winter War between the USSR and Finland, and instead sent more significant military support to Finland? Sweden and Norway's armies aren't the best in the world, but could they do a better job holding off the Soviets? Would the UK/France be more eager to send in troops to help/rope Scandinavia into the war with Germany? Would Norway and Sweden let them? How does this affect the larger war?
Scandinavian Surge
- Thread starter karl2025
- Start date
The Swedish did send a significant amount of material for the war (Including a large chunk of their air force), so it's possible for them to join the war. Norway is more unlikely, but lets go ahead and put a less skittish gov't in play there if it makes you feel better.
Norway contribudet:
895 volunteers
50 000 pairs of shoes
100 000 backpacks filled with supplies
16 000 woolen blakets
unknow number of riffles(mostly krag jørgensen) wear collected and sent by civilians often with home knitted riffel mittens
Nobelpris winner Sigrid Undset donnet her nobel prise on january 1940
12 german made 7.5 cm m/01 artillery pices
7 166 artilley shells
Allowed movent of planes via Sola airbase at Stavanger.
Norwegian volunteers helped assembel some of the planes at the Saab-factory at Trollhättan.
200 000 kg of war materials wear sent
and as special day at holmenkollen ski evnt was held as a fund raiser.
Sweden:
8 700 volunteers
Flyvinge 19/Lentorykmentti 19/LentoR 19, roughly one third of the swedish air force went to finnald on jan 7 40 with 12 Gloster Gladiator Mk. I, 5
Hawker Hart bombers, and 8 other aircraft, this was to be enlargde bye 5 Junkers Ju-86 bombers, crew and pilots wear drawn from the swedish air force.
56 75 mm filedpices whit 27 000 shells
77 000 rifles whit 17 000 000 rounds of ammunitiaon
100 machine gunns,
18 37 mm AT gunns m/34 (
76 40 mm Bofors AA gunns whit 144 000 rounds
9 150 mm howitzer whit 4 000 shells
8 trainer and 8 old bombers wear sold to the finnish goverment
Denmark:
1 010 volunteers
at least 15 pilots volunteers and served whit f 19, 5 wear KIA
178 20 mm Madsen AA gunns wear sold to the finns, the ammunisjon was order in the UK
and the collected supplys
Svenska Frivilligkåren (Swedish volunteer corps) was the main volunteer unit during the winter war, and was composed of 9640 men of how:
- 8402 sweds
- 1010 danes
- 895 norwgians
They wear deployd at Salla the 28.02.1940, and sufferd the following losses:
- 28 KIA
- 50 wounded
- 140 cases of frost bite
Bye wars end roughly 4000 more had volunteerd for services in sweden.
The volunteers didnt really see anny major combat as the spent most of their time trainig befor the ceas fier at the 13 of march. Cant really see how sweden, short of declering war on the SU/USSR could have done more. Norway and denamrk could have sent more volunteers, maby even number riverling the SS numbers.
The allies would have been allowd transport and use of bases to a certain ekstent but the main problem is that the war enden befor annything major in the forme of aide could arrive.
895 volunteers
50 000 pairs of shoes
100 000 backpacks filled with supplies
16 000 woolen blakets
unknow number of riffles(mostly krag jørgensen) wear collected and sent by civilians often with home knitted riffel mittens
Nobelpris winner Sigrid Undset donnet her nobel prise on january 1940
12 german made 7.5 cm m/01 artillery pices
7 166 artilley shells
Allowed movent of planes via Sola airbase at Stavanger.
Norwegian volunteers helped assembel some of the planes at the Saab-factory at Trollhättan.
200 000 kg of war materials wear sent
and as special day at holmenkollen ski evnt was held as a fund raiser.
Sweden:
8 700 volunteers
Flyvinge 19/Lentorykmentti 19/LentoR 19, roughly one third of the swedish air force went to finnald on jan 7 40 with 12 Gloster Gladiator Mk. I, 5
Hawker Hart bombers, and 8 other aircraft, this was to be enlargde bye 5 Junkers Ju-86 bombers, crew and pilots wear drawn from the swedish air force.
56 75 mm filedpices whit 27 000 shells
77 000 rifles whit 17 000 000 rounds of ammunitiaon
100 machine gunns,
18 37 mm AT gunns m/34 (
76 40 mm Bofors AA gunns whit 144 000 rounds
9 150 mm howitzer whit 4 000 shells
8 trainer and 8 old bombers wear sold to the finnish goverment
Denmark:
1 010 volunteers
at least 15 pilots volunteers and served whit f 19, 5 wear KIA
178 20 mm Madsen AA gunns wear sold to the finns, the ammunisjon was order in the UK
and the collected supplys
Svenska Frivilligkåren (Swedish volunteer corps) was the main volunteer unit during the winter war, and was composed of 9640 men of how:
- 8402 sweds
- 1010 danes
- 895 norwgians
They wear deployd at Salla the 28.02.1940, and sufferd the following losses:
- 28 KIA
- 50 wounded
- 140 cases of frost bite
Bye wars end roughly 4000 more had volunteerd for services in sweden.
The volunteers didnt really see anny major combat as the spent most of their time trainig befor the ceas fier at the 13 of march. Cant really see how sweden, short of declering war on the SU/USSR could have done more. Norway and denamrk could have sent more volunteers, maby even number riverling the SS numbers.
The allies would have been allowd transport and use of bases to a certain ekstent but the main problem is that the war enden befor annything major in the forme of aide could arrive.
Presumably, Norway and Sweden declaring co-belligerence with Finland would mean they'd send more material and more than the volunteers. I think I also read that England was dragging its feet so much on the issue because of Norwegian/Swedish neutrality. Without that you could see them get their act together faster.
IOTL, British threatening involvement (In addition to Finnish resistance) made the USSR finally approach the peace table. But if it happens sooner, before the USSR got its nose bloodied, would the UK planning to send troops make them pull back, or will it expand the war?
IOTL, British threatening involvement (In addition to Finnish resistance) made the USSR finally approach the peace table. But if it happens sooner, before the USSR got its nose bloodied, would the UK planning to send troops make them pull back, or will it expand the war?
Get the thing going as an ideological War, not support of our Nordic brothers! That might make for more volunteers.
Problem is of course the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact ruling the Nordic nazies out of doing the ideologic trick.
But have the Socialdemocrat Parties air the views as had been done in Denmark by book "Pest over Europa" of 1933 by Hartvig Fritsch very vocally and you just might achieve a large, but different group of peoples flocking to defend Finland!
Problem is of course the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact ruling the Nordic nazies out of doing the ideologic trick.
But have the Socialdemocrat Parties air the views as had been done in Denmark by book "Pest over Europa" of 1933 by Hartvig Fritsch very vocally and you just might achieve a large, but different group of peoples flocking to defend Finland!
Some reference numbers;
Swedes serving in the German armed forces (SS and Wehrmacht): 160-180.
The number depends on how you count, there were quite a few Germans who held double citizenship but lived and worked in Germany, for example. Larger numbers comes from counting Swedish-speaking Estonians, Germans who once had Swedish citizenship, Swedish-speaking Finns, Swedish-speaking Ukrainians (from Gammelsvenskby, where Catherine deported Swedish-speaking Estonians) and sometimes Germans who were eligable for Swedish citizenship but never held it are also counted(!).
Swedes serving in the International Brigades: ~500 with a further ~50 serving in various militias.
Swedes serving with the Western Allies (not counting Norway): ~1200
Swedes serving with Norway 1940: ~200
Swedes serving with Finland in the Winter War: ~10000
There were lots of Swedes serving in Swedish-speaking Finnish regiments and in joint Swedo-Finnish units (usually artillery or AA with Swedish equipment) outside the SFK (Svenska FrivilligKåren, Swedish Volunteer Corps). A further 4000 had been accepted for service but had not been deployed.
Swedes serving with Finland in the Continuation War: ~1000
Swedes serving in the German armed forces (SS and Wehrmacht): 160-180.
The number depends on how you count, there were quite a few Germans who held double citizenship but lived and worked in Germany, for example. Larger numbers comes from counting Swedish-speaking Estonians, Germans who once had Swedish citizenship, Swedish-speaking Finns, Swedish-speaking Ukrainians (from Gammelsvenskby, where Catherine deported Swedish-speaking Estonians) and sometimes Germans who were eligable for Swedish citizenship but never held it are also counted(!).
Swedes serving in the International Brigades: ~500 with a further ~50 serving in various militias.
Swedes serving with the Western Allies (not counting Norway): ~1200
Swedes serving with Norway 1940: ~200
Swedes serving with Finland in the Winter War: ~10000
There were lots of Swedes serving in Swedish-speaking Finnish regiments and in joint Swedo-Finnish units (usually artillery or AA with Swedish equipment) outside the SFK (Svenska FrivilligKåren, Swedish Volunteer Corps). A further 4000 had been accepted for service but had not been deployed.
Swedes serving with Finland in the Continuation War: ~1000
List of exact weapon deliveries by Sweden to Finland during the continuation war (this list includes weapons brought by the SFK);
860 pistols
84 900 rifles
1 000 carbines
200 LMGs
52 MGs
18 double AAMGs
12,2 million rifle bullets
73 37mm AT guns
72 40mm AA guns
13 75mm AA guns
6 80mm mortars
56 75mm field guns
12 105mm field guns
4 105mm mountain howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
4 210mm howitzers
2 Bristol Bulldog Mk IIA
12 Gloster Gladiator Mk II
5 Hawker Hart
2 Koolhoven FK-52
3 Fokker C.VE
2 Jaktfalken
1 DC-2
1 Junkers F-13
1 Raab-Katzenstein RK-26
In total, the aid to Finland was worth about 500 million SEK. As a comparison, a Swedish industrial worker made about 10 SEK/day and Sweden had 6,5 million inhabitants late 1939.
860 pistols
84 900 rifles
1 000 carbines
200 LMGs
52 MGs
18 double AAMGs
12,2 million rifle bullets
73 37mm AT guns
72 40mm AA guns
13 75mm AA guns
6 80mm mortars
56 75mm field guns
12 105mm field guns
4 105mm mountain howitzers
12 150mm howitzers
4 210mm howitzers
2 Bristol Bulldog Mk IIA
12 Gloster Gladiator Mk II
5 Hawker Hart
2 Koolhoven FK-52
3 Fokker C.VE
2 Jaktfalken
1 DC-2
1 Junkers F-13
1 Raab-Katzenstein RK-26
In total, the aid to Finland was worth about 500 million SEK. As a comparison, a Swedish industrial worker made about 10 SEK/day and Sweden had 6,5 million inhabitants late 1939.
the reasons they could send volunteers was that they decler no beligrency.
Also forgott to nuber the rughly 900 strong swedish "arbeidsstyrke" worker force? A no militray volunteer unit. Several of the one danes and norwgians who volunteers for finnlads later volunteer for the SS, thought thoes nuber wear larger. Im not saying that the sweds mass volunteerd for that.
Also forgott to nuber the rughly 900 strong swedish "arbeidsstyrke" worker force? A no militray volunteer unit. Several of the one danes and norwgians who volunteers for finnlads later volunteer for the SS, thought thoes nuber wear larger. Im not saying that the sweds mass volunteerd for that.
The thing is that already have been posted, we hardly had enough weapons for our own defence in 39. IN 1942-43 we had a defence worth mentioning.
And now we are to half our armored forces and dropp our manpower to around 10 000 men.
CanadianGoose
Banned
Taking into account that Winter War brought Finland into Axis IOTL (forget all this "co-belligerent" BS; Finland was in closer association with Nazis than any of American allies in 2003 Iraq adventure were with the USA), it would not be too ASBish to see Axis expanded to include Norway and Sweden (OK, might be, as with OTL Finland, "include in everything but name").
CanadianGoose said:
CG, nobody mentioned the Finnish policy of professing "co-belligerence" yet, and you are already lashing out against it? You must really hate that thesis...
About the Winter War serving as a gateway for Sweden and Norway into the Axis: you seem to assume the Finns would automatically ally with Germany post-Winter War, no matter how it ended, which I think is a bit reductionistic.
Finland joined Barbarossa not only for a war of conquest, but also because they saw at the time they had the possibility of facing the USSR alone, like in 1939, or allied with a strong power. But if they are supported by the Nordic countries, they 1) might not have to relinquish land to the USSR (or at least not as much) thus having less grounds for revanchism, and, maybe more importantly, 2) they are not alone and do not consider their position as desperate as IOTL.
With Germany eying Norway and Swedish ore, would it be also quite possible that the Nordic alliance in 1940 tilts towards the Western Allies, especially if/when Germany makes a move towards Denmark? With the Swedes and Norwegians fighting in Finland, the Anglo-French might have already played a strong part in pressuring the Soviets into peace, and stronger ties with the Nordic bloc could grow out of this.
CanadianGoose
Banned
I'm not sure why. I don't see drastic changes in war itself. Even with Sweden in Norway in full war mode (BTW be careful about Norway, it shares border with USSR so it might lose Finnmark if it enters the war), Soviets are going to win by Spring 1940 (they might lose several thousands more than they did IOTL, but it isn't going to scare Stalin) anyway. So, why not to assume something close to IOTL peace agreement? However, it might lead to Sweden being Finlandized after WWII.
Hate? I dunno. I'd say it belongs on the same garbage heap as "free union of Socialist nations" definition for USSR or ComBloc, true. However, in this particular case I was merely trying to stop long pointless (unless you see whitewashing of Finnish alliance as a "point") discussion before it started.
A bit, yes. However, Jimmy Hoffa buried in concrete block represents a bigger bit of organic matter in Mets stadium than chances of "Northern Alliance" not jumping into bed with Axis ITTL.
Hur!
I was jesting. AH loves far-reaching conclusions. "As per OTL" isn't very exciting.
Ah, but believing in co-belligerence as presented by the Finnish government during the war or nationalistic historiography later (esp. connected with the so-called driftwood theory) is a whole different thing than understanding the co-belligerence thesis as a very succesful basis for Finnish foreign policy during the Continuation War.
Finnish insistence of maintaining the idea of a separate war in diplomatic dealings with the Western Allies persuaded the US not to make war with Finland, but it was as much aimed towards Moscow.
A responsible government had to make sure that USSR will not obliterate Finland if Germany loses, and the wartime governments created an artform out of opportunism, fence-sitting and hedging the bets. Thus, Finland maintained a certain distance in all dealings with the Germans: it manifested in a consistent policy of refusing to make any binding arrangements or promises. Especially this can be seen in dealing with such dangerous minefields as the Tripartite Pact, Leningrad and the Murmansk railway. Basically, the idea was not to make anything too overt and especially, not to leave a paper trail that would later incriminate you, while at the same time keeping Hitler trusting enough to continue to equip, arm and feed Finland. It is good to remember that many Finnish leaders, including Mannerheim and Ryti, were Anglophiles at heart. To them, the alliance with Hitler's Germany was only ever an unpleasant necessity.
If one chooses to stress the overt parts of the alliance between Finland and Germany, discounting the way the co-belligerence-thesis-as-foreign-policy shaped and created reality during the war and in the immediate aftermath, one will be in a serious danger to not properly understand where Finland stood as regards to the both visible and invisible divisions of the Second World War. This is why I quite object the idea of chucking the thesis to the garbage heap, so to speak. Approached properly, it is eminently useful.