Saxon Victory 782

[arctic warrior]

To continue this ”old” thread with conditions as laid out by the OP – lets have a look at Denmark at the time.

A Denmark is mentioned in Italian writings to be around prior to 536 – the Fimbul Winter. The residence of that ”Denmark” was in Fyn the central isle of Denmark.
Post the Fimbul Winter a new center of power emerged in Sjælland the eastern isle at Lejre home of the Scyldings were great halls was built during the 500's.

In order to fortify the power the Danish Kings by 700 founded the Trade center of what became the first city Ribe, then 726 dug a canal through the central isle of Samsø to facilitate east-west crossings in that sea-area and finally 737 at the time of the death of King Theuderic IV of the Franks the southern rampart of Dannevirke is rebuilt – with the aid or knowledge of Frisians or perhaps Estonians due to the construction of oak ”boxes” filled with soil to build upon marshy ground. 737 the Saxons rejected Frankish supremacy thus inviting troubled times and of course the Danish Kings reacted to this.
As soon as the crisis evaporated Dannevirke was once again left to itself only to get a rebuild once the Franks came too close 804.

The Franks had subdued the Frisians 734 which area had been subjected to a Danish raid by King Cholchilaitus around 516/530 and king Godrey would 810 invade Frisia to demand tribute thus the area by the Danish Kings were seen as dependants which should pay tribute.

King Sigfried had a tie to the Saxon warleader Widukind as he was married to one of Sigfried daughters.

Thus in case of a Saxon defeat of Charlemagne and killing him Danish King Sigfried would have to work out some deal with the Saxons – claiming Frisia. The area to the south of Dannevirke rampart in the first map in the linked to thread marked 810 was actually a barren unsettled area ideal for a major fortification as no army could live off such lands.
When the Franks 810 conquered the land they built a fortress at Itzehoe in the area to be able to sustain an army in area.

The Viking raids in England was very much due to the current coastline of eastern England:

These waters facilitated Viking raids all out of proportion to the size of GHA.

As their nobility had a great time in England and Western Europe the Danish Kings also at times used their Army to fight the Franks and later Germans in alliance with the Slav – Obotrites, etc. only in the end deciding to conquer England.

As long as the Franks are busy getting a new King there is room for Saxon and Danish expansion.

Obotrites is in some way into the Danish Royal sphere of interest at this time as Danish coin have been found at Reric on the Baltic Coast

so a Danish Royal – Saxon alliance is very much a possible if only to protect interest's and territory.
How much the Saxons decide to advance towards the Rhine and perhaps into Thuringia isn't of the Danish Kings worry as long as he keeps his supremacy of Frisia.

 

[Andristan]

Why would they ally? Seems like they would antagonistic as saxony is blocking the only contiguous land route to denmark

 

[arctic warrior]

Why would they ally? Seems like they would antagonistic as saxony is blocking the only contiguous land route to denmark

Denmark don't need a land route. It have the ships to move by sea and its major North Sea port in the West of Jutland - Ribe. Few others save the Frisians have developed this.
Denmark would like a buffer to the south and as long as the Saxons remain so things move on. South of the Dannevirke Rampart there is just wasteland so difficult to threat Denmark at this time.

 

[Andristan]

The saxons have gone north several times in last few hundred years, since the Angles left. They are currently settling and Germanizing Holstein and in OTL start to do so with Schleswig, so maybe the Danes dont want to go south; not that i believe that, why sail away to other places when you could just walk south, easier to move your family/clan plus stuff a short distance to the nicer lands to the south than across the sea; but the Saxons are slowly moving north.
Now if these resurgent Saxons are expanding North, then we could see a slight increase in danes leaving/going viking.
But a bigger divergence is no HRE, with pepin just established as king there a few years prior.

 

[Jürgen]

Why would they ally? Seems like they would antagonistic as saxony is blocking the only contiguous land route to denmark

Denmark was centered around the inner Danish waters, the fact that Ribe was established as a major settlement was precisely because of the lack of other natural ports on the Danish western coast and that a major river crossed the peninsula there.

The Saxons on the other hand was centered around the Weser River.

This gave Danes and Saxons different focus. We also see that if we look at Danish mythological history, we see few histories about conflict with the Saxons, the main one is Uffe hin Spage who fought the Saxons, but this myth is not original Danish but one adopted from the Angles who called him Offa of Angel after their conquest by the Danish.

As for the focus the Danes will likely go after coastal control, while the Saxons will go after control of the Elbe.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Slav – Obotrites, etc. only in the end deciding to conquer England.

Tho Obodrites are factor which isn't going to be underestimated - they were one of the main enemies of early Danish state and frankly, I don't know if Denmark would be able to conquer them wholesale (Franks, much stronger than Denmark didn't until waaaaaaaay later as Germany), maybe if Charles the Great loses, they would be subjugated by Veleti under that guy - de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragowit, creating sort of united Elbean Slav kingdom (with good prospect to expand eastwards to what would IOTL become Poland), and also Avar khaganate would survive for longer, with unknown consequences.

 

[arctic warrior]

Tho Obodrites are factor which isn't going to be underestimated - they were one of the main enemies of early Danish state and frankly, I don't know if Denmark would be able to conquer them wholesale (Franks, much stronger than Denmark didn't until waaaaaaaay later as Germany), maybe if Charles the Great loses, they would be subjugated by Veleti under that guy - de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragowit, creating sort of united Elbean Slav kingdom (with good prospect to expand eastwards to what would IOTL become Poland), and also Avar khaganate would survive for longer, with unknown consequences.

Denmark didn't try to conquer the Obotrites - they had founded a trading outpost at Reric which was conquered and the merchants moved to Schliaswik 804. Perhaps due to Obotrite alliance with the Franks. Such might then not happen here depending upon Obotrites actions.

150 years later King Harold Bluetooth intermarried with the Obotrites to cement relations and both he and his successor Sweyn Forkbeard used this alliance to fight the Germans.

Around 782 I don't see the Danes fighting the Obotrites - they may or may not support the Saxons if attacked by them which will depend on the Danish Kings perception of the situation.

 

[arctic warrior]

The saxons have gone north several times in last few hundred years, since the Angles left. They are currently settling and Germanizing Holstein and in OTL start to do so with Schleswig, so maybe the Danes dont want to go south; not that i believe that, why sail away to other places when you could just walk south, easier to move your family/clan plus stuff a short distance to the nicer lands to the south than across the sea; but the Saxons are slowly moving north.
Now if these resurgent Saxons are expanding North, then we could see a slight increase in danes leaving/going viking.
But a bigger divergence is no HRE, with pepin just established as king there a few years prior.

There seems to have been quite some difference in being a Viking leader and the Danish King. Those Vikings wanted easy pillage - the King seems to have prioritized "national" security; why else rebuilding the Dannevirke rampart 737.
The next rebuilding is not untill 804 when Godfrey as mentioned rebuild the rampart - so it was for reasons alreade pointed to the southern defensible border of Denmarks. This will only happen here if the situation dictate such.
Going south would mean settleing further south founding new fortifications to be build if need be. If you have the entirety of Denmarks with still large unsettled areas and neighboring such in Scania and other parts of southern "Sweden" why fight your way into a potentially hostile territory.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Denmark didn't try to conquer the Obotrites - they had founded a trading outpost at Reric which was conquered and the merchants moved to Schliaswik 804. Perhaps due to Obotrite alliance with the Franks. Such might then not happen here depending upon Obotrites actions.

150 years later King Harold Bluetooth intermarried with the Obotrites to cement relations and both he and his successor Sweyn Forkbeard used this alliance to fight the Germans.

Around 782 I don't see the Danes fighting the Obotrites - they may or may not support the Saxons if attacked by them which will depend on the Danish Kings perception of the situation.

Well, there are still Veleti to take care of and they were currently the strongest player among Elbean Slavs (Charlemagne IOTL needed his Obodrite and Serb allies to take them down) so maybe Danish will support of Obodrites if Veleti make the move to conquer them?

 

[arctic warrior]

Well, there are still Veleti to take care of and they were currently the strongest player among Elbean Slavs (Charlemagne IOTL needed his Obodrite and Serb allies to take them down) so maybe Danish will support of Obodrites if Veleti make the move to conquer them?

Of course if its suits the King - its just politics.

 

[Jürgen]

Tho Obodrites are factor which isn't going to be underestimated - they were one of the main enemies of early Danish state and frankly, I don't know if Denmark would be able to conquer them wholesale (Franks, much stronger than Denmark didn't until waaaaaaaay later as Germany), maybe if Charles the Great loses, they would be subjugated by Veleti under that guy - de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragowit, creating sort of united Elbean Slav kingdom (with good prospect to expand eastwards to what would IOTL become Poland), and also Avar khaganate would survive for longer, with unknown consequences.

I think we should think of why Obodrites survived longer than their southern counterpart in another context, the main enemy of the Wends wa# not Danes, but the Franks/Germans and Obodrites were the one state able to get support from the outside (Denmark). In the same period Danish foreign policy was focused elsewhere. With Frank being further away Denmark will likely not focus on Saxony, the Frankish coast or England, instead the Southern Baltic coast is a much more obvious target.

 

[arctic warrior]

I think we should think of why Obodrites survived longer than their southern counterpart in another context, the main enemy of the Wends wa# not Danes, but the Franks/Germans and Obodrites were the one state able to get support from the outside (Denmark). In the same period Danish foreign policy was focused elsewhere. With Frank being further away Denmark will likely not focus on Saxony, the Frankish coast or England, instead the Southern Baltic coast is a much more obvious target.

Perhaps - the thing is West Francia/France was the target of Vikings the Danish Kings only arrived on the scene much later in the West with Sweyn Forkbeard going for England to be succeeded by his younger son Cnut. Harold Bluetooth prior to this worked with the Obotrites against the Germans and as I read it also had some designs on joining the general infighting in Saxony of the minor vassals fighting the Duke.
However as You point to without the Eastern Franks/Germans around the game looks different.

King Godfrey won't have to fight the Emperor as that one's gone.

What happens in the short run from King Sigfried father in law of Widukind dies around 790/800 and Godfrey become King? Probably not much. Sigfried didn't - at least we don't know about such - meddle in the affairs of the neighbours except having an embassy attend an Imperial meeting 782. Godfrey did fight the Obotrites 804 razing Reric and resettleing the merchants at Heithabu - this probably don't happen here as the Obotrites isn't the ally of the Franks.

Instead Godfrey will raid Frisland demanding his dues and nobody really will oppose that. So that may happen around 804/10 as he had to cement his position and build a Fleet before OTL attacking Reric.
Godfrey may well live longer than 810-11 and Denmark be spared some time of throne strife which raged untill 827 with flare-ups later.
If Sigfried or Godfrey deem it worth they may meddle in the Southen Baltic shores politics but really I see Godfrey going for Frisland and Norway; Viken Area around Oslo (Vestfold - Eastfold). At least that part of Norway had been ruled on and off by the Danish King so will be a prime target.
Godfrey had a host of sons who fought another branch of the Royal lineage following the death of Godfrey. As the opposition was sponsored by the Emperor such won't be as prolonged as OTL as the sons of Godfrey seemed determined to keep the reins but was challenged all the time by Imperial sponsored claimants.
Without the accompagning Church effort to extend the Faith to the Normans there will much pressure from the south which might extend into the East too.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

I think we should think of why Obodrites survived longer than their southern counterpart in another context, the main enemy of the Wends wa# not Danes, but the Franks/Germans and Obodrites were the one state able to get support from the outside (Denmark). In the same period Danish foreign policy was focused elsewhere. With Frank being further away Denmark will likely not focus on Saxony, the Frankish coast or England, instead the Southern Baltic coast is a much more obvious target.

Obodrites were sort of allied with Franks against Danes, so they regarded Danes as more of a threat about that period.

 

[DUWANG]

To continue this ”old” thread with conditions as laid out by the OP – lets have a look at Denmark at the time.

The Franks had subdued the Frisians 734 which area had been subjected to a Danish raid by King Cholchilaitus around 516/530 and king Godrey would 810 invade Frisia to demand tribute thus the area by the Danish Kings were seen as dependants which should pay tribute.

Thus in case of a Saxon defeat of Charlemagne and killing him Danish King Sigfried would have to work out some deal with the Saxons – claiming Frisia. The area to the south of Dannevirke rampart in

so a Danish Royal – Saxon alliance is very much a possible if only to protect interest's and territory.
How much the Saxons decide to advance towards the Rhine and perhaps into Thuringia isn't of the Danish Kings worry as long as he keeps his supremacy of Frisia.

First of all, thank you for picking up my thread.

Although I am not sure if the Saxons would like to have the Danes have a strong presence in Frisia.
I know that the Saxons probably couldn't expand much, even with the Franks being divided and in internal troubles. But I would imagine that some pagan Frisian uprising would be attempted, perhaps with the Saxons getting involved. Hoping to secure a bigger coast and expand into the last fellow pagan lands.

Wonder how the Saxon-Danish marriage would influence the conflicting interest.

Tho Obodrites are factor which isn't going to be underestimated - they were one of the main enemies of early Danish state and frankly, I don't know if Denmark would be able to conquer them wholesale

I could see a joint Saxo-Danish invasion, basically securing the Saxons border with favourable border changes while the Danes secure trading ports and coastal cities.
Either that or the Saxons try to conquer the Obodrites as revenge for siding with the Franks.

 

[Tyler96]

If Sigfried or Godfrey deem it worth they may meddle in the Southen Baltic shores politics but really I see Godfrey going for Frisland and Norway; Viken Area around Oslo (Vestfold - Eastfold). At least that part of Norway had been ruled on and off by the Danish King so will be a prime target.

Its possible Godfrey held some influence around Vestfold IOTL - his successors Harald (Klak) and Reginfrid campaigned against 'Westafolda' in 813, possibly attempting to uphold Danish overlordship there.

Presumably the idea is that after winning such a devastating victory, whatever brought about Godfrey's IOTL assassination is butterflied?

 

[arctic warrior]

First of all, thank you for picking up my thread.

Although I am not sure if the Saxons would like to have the Danes have a strong presence in Frisia.
I know that the Saxons probably couldn't expand much, even with the Franks being divided and in internal troubles. But I would imagine that some pagan Frisian uprising would be attempted, perhaps with the Saxons getting involved. Hoping to secure a bigger coast and expand into the last fellow pagan lands.

Wonder how the Saxon-Danish marriage would influence the conflicting interest.


I could see a joint Saxo-Danish invasion, basically securing the Saxons border with favourable border changes while the Danes secure trading ports and coastal cities.
Either that or the Saxons try to conquer the Obodrites as revenge for siding with the Franks.

Cheers - really wanted to contribute.

The Saxons might not like the Danes in Frisia but the Danish Kings seemed to want it - part of it was also given to Danish pretenders by the Emperor during the Danish Throne Wars and to pacify Vikings which certainly didn't work out.

I think the real problem dividing Danes and Saxons is that the Danish King - and there really seems to be a significant difference in the interest of the King and the Vikings which I already pointed to - wanted to secure the southern border and get revenue from his trading city Reric. Otl having to level the latter and move it back home due to Obotrites allying with the Franks. It don't look like - at the time and certainly not later that the Danish Kings had any trouble with the Obotrites so I don't expect him to ally to the Saxons to fight them contrary to popular thingking around here.

The marriage I only see as a guarantee of the Danish King aiding Widukind in times of trouble not really as all out alliance. Wouldn't prevent conflicting interest to pop up and thus not a given that the Danes would support the Saxons against the Obotrites and certainly not the Frisians - rather a hands off regaring the latter. Might lose the King an ally.
If - the Obotrites continue their adversity to the Saxons and because of that tell the Danish King that his trade city Reric is on their territory then its another matter - but this didn't happen till post 800 or so. So I'll expect them to thread lightly.
So essentially no Danish cooperation in aggression against the Obotrites except if those be the ones to initiate.

 

[arctic warrior]

Its possible Godfrey held some influence around Vestfold IOTL - his successors Harald (Klak) and Reginfrid campaigned against 'Westafolda' in 813, possibly attempting to uphold Danish overlordship there.

Presumably the idea is that after winning such a devastating victory, whatever brought about Godfrey's IOTL assassination is butterflied?

It certainly is and that was possibly what he was about to hammer in on the Norwegian petty Kings by 810-11 and then getting killed in Frisia or en route. Scandinavia was the area of interest to the Danish King it seems.

Without Charlemagne and Frankish Empire in tatters the outline is much different - Godfrey won't have to fight the Obotrites so may by 804 go to Frisia to assert himself and won't need to rebuild the Dannevirke Rampart. Then its off to Viken to tell the Norwegians who's boss.

Post death of King Sigfried "father" of Godfrey (" " because Denmark was still an electorate Kingdom so could be a nephew or younger brother) he wouldn't feel obliged to not counter the marriage alliance of Widukinds - and anyway its not a given that Widukind is still in power then.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

I could see a joint Saxo-Danish invasion, basically securing the Saxons border with favourable border changes while the Danes secure trading ports and coastal cities.
Either that or the Saxons try to conquer the Obodrites as revenge for siding with the Franks.

Yeah, but Obodrites aren't only Slavic tribe around and the other one, Veleti under prince Drogovit were strong enough that Charles the Great needed Serbians, Saxons and Obodrites in addition to his own forces to take them down
"Because of their constant hatred and hostility toward the Franks,[3] in the late 8th century, Frankish king Charlemagne organised campaigns against the Veleti, and fellow Slavic tribe of the Linonen. With the aid of Frisian, Obodrite1, Saxon and Sorbian1 reinforcements, Charlemagne managed to cross the Elbe River, advancing toward the Havel River into Veleti territory. Outnumbered, Dragovit, in 789, was forced to pledge loyalty to the Franks and surrender hostages.[4] Among others, Dragovit was also forced to pay a tribute and accept the influence of Christian missionaries among his people.[5]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragovit, so I don't see Saxo-Danish coalition defeating him entirely, IMHO if Obodrites are partitioned, it'd be three-way between Veleti, Saxons and Danes.

 

[DUWANG]

so I don't see Saxo-Danish coalition defeating him entirely, IMHO if Obodrites are partitioned, it'd be three-way between Veleti, Saxons and Danes.

Something like this perhaps?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Something like this perhaps?

View attachment 889005

Yah, that map is fine. Maybe Veleti would than try to expand south using the opportunity their alliance with Saxons and Danes gave them and absborb Sorbs, creating Elbean Slav kingdom, and well, if Charlemagne lost in Saxony, it could have also consequences further south, Bavaria would probably go independent under Agilolfings, Avar khaganate would survive longer and maybe Carantania would also survive longer.