Question: Is there any time before 1895 Spain could've lost Cuba?

JJohnson

Banned
Aside from the Spanish-American War, is there any time prior to that they could've lost Cuba, either by purchase or military conquest? I'm wondering if the US could've bought it in 1819 with Florida, or in the 1840s with Polk, or even back in the 1740s with England acquiring it, then having it join the US in the revolution.
 
An old soc.history.what-if post of mine:

***

My POD is the "Black Warrior affair" leading to war with Spain in 1854.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0807810.html It might have done
so--there were calls for the suspension of the neutrality act, which would
mean unleashing filibusters on Cuba--except that the Kansas-Nebraska Act
was pending in Congress, and anti-Nebraska forces raised a violent outcry
that the administration was looking for war as a way out of its sectional
troubles.

The turning point was probably May 30, 1854. On that day, Senators Mason,
Douglas, and Slidell--in short, the Democratic majority on the foreign
relations committee--met with President Pierce and urged him to support
legislation calling for a suspension of the neutrality act. Instead of
doing so, Pierce proposed to his callers "the creation of a three-man
commission to go to Madrid to present to the government in all seriousness
the desire for Cuba and to warn that probably only cession would stop the
filibusters. The three visitors accepted this plan, though far from
eagerly. As a part of the arrangement, [Secretary of State William] Marcy
was called upon to telegraph to the district attorney in New Orleans that
decisive measures were on the way. This was to help him hold the
filibusters in line. Pierce also promised that before the session ended he
would explicitly ask for a big appropriation, big enough for war purposes,
in case the commission was unsuccessful. On May 31, i.e., the next day,
Pierce issued a proclamation calling for an observance of the neutrality
laws." Ivor Debenham Spencer, *The Victor and the Spoils: A Life of
William L. Marcy* (Providence, RI: Brown University Press 1959), p. 323.

The result of Pierce's decision was to kill off the filibuster movement.
Its leaders, including Mississippi's ex-governor John Quitman, were even
required to give bond for their good conduct. Another result was a more
conciliatory attitude toward the Black Warrior incident. By midsummer, as
it turned out, Pierce had not dared to send Congress the proposal for the
commission, though that body was still in session; and the Senate foreign
relations committee decided not to ask for an emergency appropriation,
though Pierce had indicated his willingness to do so.

This does not by any means indicate that Pierce had given up on Cuba.
Something like the originally-planned commission was eventually created
and issued the famous "Ostend Manifesto"
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HNS/Ostend/ostend.html but by that time
the Democrats had suffered drastic defeats in elections in the North--due
largely to a backlash against the Kansas-Nebraska Act--and even Pierce
(let alone the more conservative Marcy) had to repudiate the Manifesto.

So basically my POD for US acquisition of Cuba is *no Kansas-Nebraska
Act*. Without this, Pierce and the overwhelmingly Democratic Congress
would probably have approved a quick suspension of the neutrality act
after the Black Warrior affair. And as I stated in a post a few years
ago, organization of Nebraska without repeal of the Missouri Compromise
was by no means inconceivable. For a while, even David Rice Atchison,
despairing of getting repeal through Congress, was willing to accept this,
but when other southerners showed an unwillingness to organize the
territory on this basis (giving, among other reasons, their well-known
respect for Indian land titles :) ) and when his bitter enemy Thomas Hart
Benton started to mock him for his retreat, he swore that he would see the
territory "sink in Hell" before giving it to the free-soilers. If just a
few Upper South senators had gone along with Atchison's temporary retreat,
there would have been no Kansas-Nebraska Act as we know it. There might
still be a controversy over slavery in Kansas--the Missourians there might
still try to establish it, arguing the Missouri Compromise was
unconstitutional, and a Dred Scott-like test case would make its way to
the Supreme Court--but at least the political explosion of 1854 would be
delayed. (Of course another way to have the Kansas-Nebraska bill as we
know it not come up is to have the Black Warrior affair happen a few
months before it did in OTL--in short, have the US get to the brink of war
with Spain *before* the Kansas-Nebraska bill is introduced. The war scare
would doubtless delay any decision about what to do about Nebraska.)
Secretary of State Marcy, never a great enthusiast for Cuba (and
especially opposed to taking it by force) pretty much summed up the
situation in a letter to Senator Mason on July 23, 1854:

"To tell you an unwelcome truth, the Nebraska question has sadly shattered
our party in all the free states and deprived it of that strength which
was needed and could have been much more profitably used for the
acquisition of Cuba." Quoted in Spencer, *The Victor and the Spoils*, p.
324

The South in 1854 was strong enough to get Cuba--or to get the Missouri
Compromise repealed in a futile effort to make Kansas a slave state. She
was not strong enough to get both, and disastrously chose the Kansas
shadow over the Cuban substance. (Of course the real disaster of Kansas
for the South was that it led to the rise of the Republican Party. I
doubt very much that a war with Spain, provoked by the Black Warrior
incident, would be enough to do so, even if it led to the acquisition of
Cuba as a slave state. Unlike Kansas, Cuba already had slavery, so
slavery would not be extended by its acquisition; it was even argued that
acquisition of Cuba would help stem the illegal African slave trade to
that island. And in any event, unlike Kansas, Cuba was not a place where
northern farmers were planning to settle.)
 

JJohnson

Banned
Yeah, Austrian Succession or Seven Years War both have strong possibilities for Spain to lose Cuba. Maybe even Spanish Succession.

If Cuba were lost at that Battle of Havana could it end up in US hands by 1783? Would it have enough English-speaking colonists to side with the Americans?
 
What specific era?
Immediately after the Mexican independence.During that era where Spain didn't recognize Mexico as an independent country,it frequently used Cuba as a military base to try and reconquer Mexico.Eventually,the Mexicans contemplated creating a navy to conquer Cuba.The US objected the plan however.
 
Immediately after the Mexican independence.During that era where Spain didn't recognize Mexico as an independent country,it frequently used Cuba as a military base to try and reconquer Mexico.Eventually,the Mexicans contemplated creating a navy to conquer Cuba.The US objected the plan however.
Thanks for the info.
 
I don't know how far back your thinking of going,

But Oliver Cromwell's protectorate fleet considered taking Cuba as part of the Western Design in the Anglo-Spanish wars(1654-60) but the idea was overruled by Penn and Venebles in favour of the more glory-seeking direct assault on Saint Domingo
Interestingly it was this decision that led to the failure of the entire Western design as when they failed Cromwell called the fleet back and imprisoned them in the tower.
If they'd attacked Cuba they would've overrun it and possibly used it as a base of operations but because it was fairly insignificant at that time compared to Hispaniola and Jamaica it was left alone
 

Faeelin

Banned
If they'd attacked Cuba they would've overrun it and possibly used it as a base of operations but because it was fairly insignificant at that time compared to Hispaniola and Jamaica it was left alone

Cuba was fairly insignificant compared to Jamaica? Jamaica, IIRC, had about 1500 Spanish settlers at this time, no?
 

Faeelin

Banned
This thread shows one of my pet peeves; that somehow it was only a fluke that kept the Spanish Emprie from falling like ripe fruit into the hands of a passerby, preferably someone Anglo-Saxon. In actuality there were numerous attempts to conquer parts of the Spanish Empire in 17th and 18th century, many of which ended in disaster. Cartagena, the Western Design, the assault on Santo Domingo (and Haiti) in the French Revolution...
 

JJohnson

Banned
I don't know how far back your thinking of going,

But Oliver Cromwell's protectorate fleet considered taking Cuba as part of the Western Design in the Anglo-Spanish wars(1654-60) but the idea was overruled by Penn and Venebles in favour of the more glory-seeking direct assault on Saint Domingo
Interestingly it was this decision that led to the failure of the entire Western design as when they failed Cromwell called the fleet back and imprisoned them in the tower.
If they'd attacked Cuba they would've overrun it and possibly used it as a base of operations but because it was fairly insignificant at that time compared to Hispaniola and Jamaica it was left alone

Interesting. I'm not too familiar with Cromwell's time in England's history. I've got a new time period to study. Thanks!
 
I don't know how far back your thinking of going,

But Oliver Cromwell's protectorate fleet considered taking Cuba as part of the Western Design in the Anglo-Spanish wars(1654-60) but the idea was overruled by Penn and Venebles in favour of the more glory-seeking direct assault on Saint Domingo
Interestingly it was this decision that led to the failure of the entire Western design as when they failed Cromwell called the fleet back and imprisoned them in the tower.
If they'd attacked Cuba they would've overrun it and possibly used it as a base of operations but because it was fairly insignificant at that time compared to Hispaniola and Jamaica it was left alone

That's wrong. They attacked Hispaniola and failed. And then becuase they were too weak to take Cuba, decided to grab Jamaica which was the weakest of the major islands.
 
Interesting. I'm not too familiar with Cromwell's time in England's history. I've got a new time period to study. Thanks!


It's worth looking at, it's overlooked because a lot of the time it was unsuccessful, and it didn't last, and people focus more on the events in England, but Commonwealth and protectorate foreign policy and actions were very up and down and interesting.


That's wrong. They attacked Hispaniola and failed. And then because they were too weak to take Cuba, decided to grab Jamaica which was the weakest of the major islands.

You are partially correct, but I am not entirely wrong. I was slightly off with my timeline there, they did take Jamaica after failing at Hispaniola.

But the idea to possibly take Cuba occurred before the attack on Hispaniola but was overruled by the leaders Penn and Venebles who wanted to emulate Drake as he'd conquered it from the Spanish in the 1580's and received a huge ransom payment from Spain to spare what remained and leave.

Cuba was not a Spanish stronghold back then, it was a Spanish controlled island but nothing special separating it from any other island at the time, it would grow in importance in the following centuries.

The original force could have taken it imo if they hadn't decided to attack Hispaniola and failed drastically
 
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If Cuba were lost at that Battle of Havana could it end up in US hands by 1783? Would it have enough English-speaking colonists to side with the Americans?

I don't believe there would have been nearly enough "White" (presumably British descended) colonists by 1783 even if Britain kept Cuba as a whole after 1762. Note that Britain never conquered anything beyond the confines of Havana in that war, and only that at great cost in disease. The Cuban merchants were happy to trade within the empire for a short time but there was no support for British continued occupation. I doubt Britain could spare the resources for permanently forcing the issue on the whole island.

Note that Cuba was primarily Spanish at this time, rather than African. No one likes a foreign ruler.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I don't believe there would have been nearly enough "White" (presumably British descended) colonists by 1783 even if Britain kept Cuba as a whole after 1762. Note that Britain never conquered anything beyond the confines of Havana in that war, and only that at great cost in disease. The Cuban merchants were happy to trade within the empire for a short time but there was no support for British continued occupation. I doubt Britain could spare the resources for permanently forcing the issue on the whole island.


Well, they did seize Quebec...
 
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