Pro-LGBT Nazi Germany

[Andrela]

I realize the premise alone may sound ridiculous, but hear me out.

Is it possible to make the Nazis supportive of LGBT rights and be progressive on sexuality, while still having them be extremist on race/ethnicity?

This is because to my horror I've often seen some LGBT people who have expressed Anti-Semitic and Neo-Nazi-like views so I was wondering how the hell they reconcile their sexuality with their ideology.

So, is it possible in some way?

 

[SeanPdineen]

Avoid the Night of the long knifes, Rhom is gay. Guido von list said monogamy and marriage were un ayran. Spartan style sexual mentorship maybe?

 

[Changundramon]

Avoid the Night of the long knifes, Rhom is gay. Guido von list said monogamy and marriage were un ayran. Spartan style sexual mentorship maybe?

There's rumors that other Nazis were at least bisexual, as well. But definitely, with Röhm in power, Nazism would have a leftist vibe, and no ˝Aryan superhuman˝ focus, which OTL labelled these sexual orientation groups as degenerate.

 

[EAF602Whizz]

And the uniforms! The UNIFORMS!! sigh

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

There's rumors that other Nazis were at least bisexual, as well. But definitely, with Röhm in power, Nazism would have a leftist vibe, and no ˝Aryan superhuman˝ focus, which OTL labelled these sexual orientation groups as degenerate.

Maybe have the Black Front take over? Strasser's Germany anyone?

 

[riggerrob]

To change Nazi attitudes towards sexual orientation, you need to change Hitler's oratorical style. Hitler's oratorical style involved bullying the weakest minority.
Hitler began many of his speeches with a racial slur (e.g. Anti-Slabic) Then he would listen to the audience's response.
Then Hitler would make a religious slur - most often against Jews - and listen to the applause.
Then he would disparage homosexuals .......
Then he would stir up fear against one of the countries that had invaded Germany before (the list is long) .........

Once Hitler had concluded which minority the audience feared the most, he would devote the rest of his speech to putting down a minority group.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Hmmm. Maybe they go further with their new Rome theme and try to bring back (or at least tolerate) more Greco-Roman social morals?

 

[Some Bloke]

I realize the premise alone may sound ridiculous, but hear me out.

Is it possible to make the Nazis supportive of LGBT rights and be progressive on sexuality, while still having them be extremist on race/ethnicity?

This is because to my horror I've often seen some LGBT people who have expressed Anti-Semitic and Neo-Nazi-like views so I was wondering how the hell they reconcile their sexuality with their ideology.

So, is it possible in some way?

Assuming the rest of history plays out similar to OTL, how does this affect post war attitudes?

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

Assuming the rest of history plays out similar to OTL, how does this affect post war attitudes?

Initially worse toward LGBT but people will conveniently forget that the Nazis were pro-LGBT much the same as they forget that the Nazis were the first to launch a satellite into space or link smoking to cancer.

 

[desmirelle]

Part of the purpose of this pro-mythical-aryan nonsense was the birth of more and blue-eyed, blonde-haired brats like I thought my sister was......LGBT is counterproductive to this and this one of the reasons it would not be incorporated into the nazi cause.

 

[Brundlefly]

One could argue that many of the leading Nazis came from a generation that grew up with ideas of lebensreform, which cherished the natural body shape and had close ideological links to both esoteric groups like the George Circle (a male-only society where homosexuality was not totally out of place) and nationalist intellectuals that were present in early incarnations of National Socialism. But despite the Greco-Roman lineage and its fixation with young boys and a cult of the male body, and despite a prominent Nazi leader (Röhm) being homosexual one can't brush aside that homosexuality basically clashed with one core principle of Nazi ideology and politics: the idea that the core family breeds as many racially pure children as possible in order to build up an Aryan society. So whatever personal sympathies leading Nazis might have toward love with other men, they'd have to live it out more as a personal fetish and it couldn't be incorporated into their ultra-biologist, Social Darwinist, preservation-at-all-costs policies. With lesbians, it would be even more difficult.

 

[overoceans]

One could argue that many of the leading Nazis came from a generation that grew up with ideas of lebensreform, which cherished the natural body shape and had close ideological links to both esoteric groups like the George Circle (a male-only society where homosexuality was not totally out of place) and nationalist intellectuals that were present in early incarnations of National Socialism. But despite the Greco-Roman lineage and its fixation with young boys and a cult of the male body, and despite a prominent Nazi leader (Röhm) being homosexual one can't brush aside that homosexuality basically clashed with one core principle of Nazi ideology and politics: the idea that the core family breeds as many racially pure children as possible in order to build up an Aryan society. So whatever personal sympathies leading Nazis might have toward love with other men, they'd have to live it out more as a personal fetish and it couldn't be incorporated into their ultra-biologist, Social Darwinist, preservation-at-all-costs policies. With lesbians, it would be even more difficult.

Yeas, I think, at most, the Nazis would tolerate homosexuality within the context of the military and allied social organizations, while decrying it for the rest of society.

Sort of like, these days, if a bunch of American soldiers get caught going to brothels overseas, their right-wing supporters back home might defend them with gender tradtionalist, boys-will-be-boys, if-they-can't f*ck-they-can't-fight rhetoric. But those same right-wingers would go apeshit about pornography being sold at the local convenience stores in their own god-fearing towns and villages.

 

[It's]

I realize the premise alone may sound ridiculous, but hear me out.

Is it possible to make the Nazis supportive of LGBT rights and be progressive on sexuality, while still having them be extremist on race/ethnicity?

This is because to my horror I've often seen some LGBT people who have expressed Anti-Semitic and Neo-Nazi-like views so I was wondering how the hell they reconcile their sexuality with their ideology.

So, is it possible in some way?

I know it's been said before in other threads, but if Nazis believed that, then they wouldn't be Nazis. To Nazis, it's all about survival of the fittest- that is, the best race. Not just about exterminating inferior races, but breeding the superior race. I'm not sure how that could be reconciled with sexual preferences that do not serve the biological imperative.

 

[Isaac Beach]

Could you subvert the aryan superhuman ideal to make it hypermasculine and subsequently see itself as superior to all feminine qualities? Including, well, screwing them? Stuff I see in the locker room looks incredibly homoerotic to be perfectly honest and I've always felt tying hypermasculinity to homosexuality would be fairly easy, sociologically speaking. Or maybe I just don't understand locker room talk, aha.

 

[Polish Eagle]

I know it's been said before in other threads, but if Nazis believed that, then they wouldn't be Nazis. To Nazis, it's all about survival of the fittest- that is, the best race. Not just about exterminating inferior races, but breeding the superior race. I'm not sure how that could be reconciled with sexual preferences that do not serve the biological imperative.

Perhaps they could come up with some variation on the 'gay uncle' hypothesis whereby homosexuals are viewed as better soldiers, and so tolerable for the protection of the Reich? In this manner, they make up for their own reproductive uselessness by supporting their siblings.

Of course, that kind of ideology would probably horrify the conservative elements of German society enough to keep them marginalized.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Could you subvert the aryan superhuman ideal to make it hypermasculine and subsequently see itself as superior to all feminine qualities? Including, well, screwing them? Stuff I see in the locker room looks incredibly homoerotic to be perfectly honest and I've always felt tying hypermasculinity to homosexuality would be fairly easy, sociologically speaking. Or maybe I just don't understand locker room talk, aha.

So basically Swastika Night.

 

[St. Just]

classic xandrelposting.

the problem with LGBT rights and the Right is that even a Sparta-aping fascism would still believe in patriarchal norms about the family and especially procreation (after all, the Nazis gave out medals to women who had a ton of kids). Homosexuality would be seen as too Cabaret, too reminiscent of Weimar -- and would be both subversive towards norms and useless in producing more soldiers.

As for trans-ness, that I could actually see under certain circumstances -- transcending the physical form, reinforcing inborn gender roles, and the various rationales used in places like Iran/Rick Santorum.

 

[riggerrob]

Demographics dominated Nazi attitudes towards sexuality.

Germany lost the better part of a generation of young men during WW1. The German Army needed 20 years to replenish its ranks before it could resume the war.

During the 1920s, a common sight - in Berlin - was a young mother pushing a baby carriage and accompanied by the baby's grandparents, but no young father in sight!

Guido Von List's statement about "monogamy being un-Aryan" was about encouraging young women to shag as many young soldiers as they liked so that they could deliver a robust, blond-haired, blue-eyed, Nazi baby every year. ....to replenish the Wehrmacht's ranks with blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryan lads.

The Germany Army also lost millions of men during WW2. .... requiring even more Aryan babies to replenish the ranks.
Nazis did reduce the stigma of un-wed mothers by allowing them to deliver and recover in special maternity hospitals.

Ther was also the matter of recreation for troops before they returned to battle. In this regard, Nazis treated Aryan "field mattresses" infinitely better than the Japanese Army treated enslaved "comfort women" in China and Korea.

Finally they is the matter of blind obedience to a totalitarian government. If the dictator can tell you what to eat and who you can have sex with, then he can control all your other thoughts.

 

[Garbageman]

Magnus Hirschfeld said that some of the Nazis (other than Rohm) were clients at the Institute of Sex Studies and that he was targeted for "knowing too much".