Poll: Bismarck's preferences of territorial annexation from France

[raharris1973]

I've heard conflicting things on what, if anything Bismarck wanted to annex from France during the Franco-Prussian war.

General consensus seems to be Moltke insisted on at least the full annexation that occurred in OTL and he was in line with the clear majority of German public opinion.

As for Bismarck, the range seems to be anywhere from Bismarck wanting to annex no French territory to wanting to annex somewhat less than what was taken in OTL.

 

[Gurroruo]

You forgot the poll

 

[The Red]

You forgot the poll

There's sometimes a gap between the Poll and the Thread due to the latter being posted when the former is still being written, patience is key.

In any case, the areas of German speakers were almost all in Alsace if Bismarck did want part of Lorraine it likely would have been negligible.

 

[freivolk]

I assume that Alsac-Lorraine was always a sideshow for Bismarck. He brought it up, to keep the war going on, because he feared that if the war ended after Sedan, the southgerman states would wiggle out the whole Germn Unity deal. After the war he regreted it and tried (succesfull) to laid the blame on the military and the public.

 

[Mikestone8]

Iirc he later expressed regret about the annexation of French-speaking districts, ie Metz.

He may have been telling the truth, but French grief over the Lost Provinces focused more on Strasbourg than on Metz, so it probably wouldn't have helped much irt Franco-German relations.

 

[Essam]

Lorraine was what was considered core France more so than Alsace I believe...

 

[Iserlohn]

Lorraine was what was considered core France more so than Alsace I believe...

Well, strictly speaking France absorbed Alsace before Lorraine, so that is definitely debateable. Though you could say that, considering Lorraine was even before incorporation into France more French than Alsace when it was annexed by Germany in 1871, then your statement would be true.

Regarding the question, I'm following the idea that Bismarck wanted to avoid future conflict from the get-go, so I chose "no annexations".

 

[Widukind]

Bismarck only ever "objected" later on. At the time, he was all for annexing A-L, or at least failed to indicate anything contradicting that he was in favor.

There's no doubt that Bismarck was a capable politician, but he wasn't a clairvoyant. He didn't realize how much ill will the annexation would cause until after the fact. And even when he did, he felt that only the majority French parts should've been left alone... which wouldn't have made a difference, because the French didn't want to part with any of the area. (No matter that it was mostly populated by Germans...)

 

[MrHaakwood]

With or without territorial lost, France would be pissed as hell for beeing defeated what they considered as their inherited playground. It makes no difference.

 

[TheNordicBrit]

From what I've read, Bismarck only annexed Alsace-Lorraine to satisfy the German populace, the King and the generals because, when peace was made with Austria, no lands (like Bohemia and Saxony) were annexed as the King desired.

 

[Wendell]

I thought that one reason for the annexations related to better border security.

 

[raharris1973]

I thought that one reason for the annexations related to better border security.

That was definitely an argument in favor, giving Germany the Vosges, protecting the upper Rhine

He brought it up, to keep the war going on, because he feared that if the war ended after Sedan, the south german states would wiggle out the whole Germn Unity deal.

Well, establishing Alsace-Lorraine as a special imperial territory on the border with France certainly reduced the *domestic political* consequences of border defense. It avoided having to station alot of Prussian troops in Bavarian Palatinate, Baden and Wurttemburg.

As for the war stopping at Sedan, that's an obvious WI. "If the F-P war ended with Sedan, would the southern states still have joined the North German Confederation?"

Iirc he later expressed regret about the annexation of French-speaking districts, ie Metz.

He didn't realize how much ill will the annexation would cause until after the fact.

I wonder when he, or indeed any other Germans (besides Karl Marx) first articulated said regrets- After the Franco-Russian alliance in the 1890s? After the Boulangist war scare of the 80s? Or possibly in the 1870s upon France's quick recovery?

 

[Wendell]

I wonder too if the war ending after Sedan would have preserved the Second French Empire.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

What Bismarck really wanted wasnt Alsace or Lorraine - but Bavaria.

Imo, the war was basically a device to convince southern Germany to join the Greater Prussia, I mean 'Germany'.

 

[Imladrik]

It wasn't populated by Germans at all. Despite German Nationalist propaganda, Alsatians are not Germans, we have a separate and well defined identity (and we consider ourselves French before being Alsatians, as it was in 1871).

With or without territorial lost, France would be pissed as hell for beeing defeated what they considered as their inherited playground. It makes no difference.

Despite what your francophobia says to you, French are not bloodthirsty animals who want to conquer and destroy Germany. France was completely absorbed into the early colonization by 1871 and would have continued to mostly ignore what would happen in Europe if Germany hadn't taken French territory.

 

[MrHaakwood]

It wasn't populated by Germans at all. Despite German Nationalist propaganda, Alsatians are not Germans, we have a separate and well defined identity (and we consider ourselves French before being Alsatians, as it was in 1871).



Despite what your francophobia says to you, French are not bloodthirsty animals who want to conquer and destroy Germany. France was completely absorbed into the early colonization by 1871 and would have continued to mostly ignore what would happen in Europe if Germany hadn't taken French territory.

Ups, sorry I thought I had you on ignore since the last time we debated this and you posted a poem to proof that Alsatian was totaly not German, only to then leave the discussion because many German speakers ridiculed you, for how easy the poem was to understand for them.
Sorry, I dont talk with Germanophobian dudes, and since I only know you from two discussions: Versailles and AL I just catch up to what I thought I had done already, put you on ignore.

 

[Derekc2]

As far as I could tell that it would had been better for Germany if they didn't conquer Alscae-Lorraine. France might (and that's a big might) had been a little bitter, but in the end they would be in a lot less revancist position. It's harder to convince the working class to invade another nation if they have no real "reason" to invade in the first place. Lost teritory of the nation, it's rather easy to convince the working class to fight "to regain sacre ground for France!" but it's a lot more difiicult to convince the working class to fight for something that in the end doesn't effect their common, every day lives.

 

[fhaessig]

Ups, sorry I thought I had you on ignore since the last time we debated this and you posted a poem to proof that Alsatian was totaly not German, only to then leave the discussion because many German speakers ridiculed you, for how easy the poem was to understand for them.
Sorry, I dont talk with Germanophobian dudes, and since I only know you from two discussions: Versailles and AL I just catch up to what I thought I had done already, put you on ignore.

You should not, however, reject everything he says on a Pavlovian reflex, because on this, he is right. Alsacians do not think of themselves as Germans, they did not in 1914, they did not in 1870 and they did not in 1789. They were thinking of themselves as part of the HRE and not France in the second half of the 17th century, after Alsace was annexed by France, but things had changed since.

I am from Alsace and the above is mostly based on discussions with older familly members - since past away - and what they remember of what their parents or grand parents were telling them, at least for the situation between the 1870s and now. For earlier (ie 1789 and 1650s), it is an opinion, based on the recorded reaction of the inhabitants.

Concerning the language, the situation is complicated. Alsacian is definitely part of the Germanic language group. So are Switzer Deutsch and Dutch (I'm currently living in the netherlands and some word roots or grammar artefacts are common between Alsatian and Dutch but not with ' official' (read Prussian) German - obviously, the south west german dialects are much nearer to Alsatian ), and the speakers are recognised as not Germans. The usual answer to this is that that these areas have devellopped their own cultural identity over history and so are no longer considered as German. I contend it is the same with Alsace.

And that is all I will say on the topic on this subject on this thread. I'm giving you facts as seen from Alsace, do with them as you want. I've learned not to debate this in this forum, as the ' Deutschland uber Alles' crowd has imposed its own PC standards on the topic and it does not seem possible to debate the point politely.

 

[usertron2020]

Lorraine was what was considered core France more so than Alsace I believe...

Saint Joan of Arc is the Maid of Lorraine.

With or without territorial lost, France would be pissed as hell for beeing defeated what they considered as their inherited playground. It makes no difference.

It would make a difference. I can't imagine somebody like Clemenceau getting a large and eager audience for...annexation of the Rhineland!?

It wasn't populated by Germans at all.

Even I know that ethnic minorities exist in cross-border populations, as Alsace-Lorraine has passed between France, the Holy Roman Empire, and "the Germanies", for centuries. Particularly along the Rhine River. And we are not talking post-World War One Alsace here.

Despite German Nationalist propaganda, Alsatians are not Germans, we have a separate and well defined identity (and we consider ourselves French before being Alsatians, as it was in 1871).

Yes, but post-Franco-Prussian War Alsatians were pretty despised as a minority in Thrid Republic France, sadly. They were French, but many of their countrymen in "France proper" seemed to see Alsatians as "French-lite", or "German-tainted".

And remember, it wasn't just Alfred Dreyfus' Jewishness that inflamed his enemies. They weren't ALL just 100% anti-semites. It was also his origin. Though raised in France proper, Dreyfus was born in Mulhouse in Alsace, right on the Rhine River, and on what was the German border at that time. So that by the time of his arrest, adults in France under the age of forty had no political awareness of France as it was as a whole nation, but had been raised with Alsace-Lorraine as "German". However unfortunate that that fact was seen in the Third Republic.

Worse for Dreyfus, German Law required that his elder brother Jean maintain his German citizenship so that he could continue to run the family business in Mulhouse. So the complete vilification of Alsatians by Anti-Drefusards was a major secondary influence on L'Affair.

The mania of the Anti-Dreyfusards extended even to the legendary Auguste Scheurer-Kestner, France's last senator from Alsace, and Dreyfus' earliest political defender. To the destruction of his own political career, as the Anti-Dreyfusards used the fact of his Alsatian origin as "proof" that he had German loyalties. "One could hear the clink of German coins as he walked past"-Anti-Dreyfusard politician (2)

2) My guess is it was Edouard Drumont, also publisher of La Libre Parole

Despite what your francophobia says to you, French are not bloodthirsty animals who want to conquer and destroy Germany. (3)

3) Huh!? France has not been strong enough as a nation (population difference) to take out a united Germany for a very long time, and who suggests otherwise?

I thought the modern racist anti-French meme was about "cheese eating surrender monkeys?" Which yes I know is totally bullshit if you know anything about the fighting qualities of today's French soldier.

France was completely absorbed into the early colonization by 1871 and would have continued to mostly ignore what would happen in Europe if Germany hadn't taken French territory.

Uh, Imperial France's history with nations like Mexico don't give them a lot of bragging rights regarding the sanctity of their own national sovereignty in Alsace. Though I fully agree with you that with no annexation of Alsace-Lorraine, there will be no Revanche movement. Do you think France could get into entangling alliances anyway, setting up a WWI with a level of lessened national unity, say like as in WWII?

 

[Yorel]

Personnally, I had always understood that Alsace-Lorraine had been annexed because the Germans thought they needed to annex it for their own defense. That's more or less what Wilhelm I wrote in a letter to Empress Eugenie (Napoleon III's wife) in 1870, letter which was used by Clemenceau at Versailles to justify the restitution of Alsace-Lorraine. So I guess I just put Bismarck on the same boat as his Emperor.

Yes, but post-Franco-Prussian War Alsatians were pretty despised as a minority in Thrid Republic France, sadly. They were French, but many of their countrymen in "France proper" seemed to see Alsatians as "French-lite", or "German-tainted".

Yet during the Third Republic, a critic of the colonial policy said "I lost two sister and you're offering me twenty servants". The two sister referred to Alsace and Lorraine, the servants to the colonies France was conquering and it was basically a way of saying "Who care about colonies: we need to recover our lost brothers in Alsace and Lorraine".

The loss of Alsace-Lorraine was seen as a deep mutilation of the territory after 1870 and that is what fueled most of French Revanchism during the 1870-1914 period. Besides, let's not forget that Alsace had been French since the reign of Louis XIV: before 1870, it had been French for two centuries and was thus considered a French territory by most people.

I thought the modern racist anti-French meme was about "cheese eating surrender monkeys?" Which yes I know is totally bullshit if you know anything about the fighting qualities of today's French soldier.

Not just today, but also in the past. What's generally annoying is that people only remember how quickly France was defeated in 1870 and 1940: never mind the fact France was the dominating power in Europe for a long time and still considered one of the major power even after its defeats. Never mind also that there are quite a few episodes of French bravery that were spoken even in the two big defeats or the fact that even then the French managed to score a few victories (didn't change the course of these wars but still...)