Plausibility Check: Venecian Veneto in the HRE

[Geekhis Khan]

A collaborative TL I'm working on sees Mamluk Egypt break free from the Ottomans in the early 17th C., dig a Nile-Red Sea canal, and eventually open itself up as a neutral trade crossroads. One effect has been Venice going rather their own way away from the Iberian powers and in doing so alienated them as potential allies. When a resurgent OE takes over Crete earlier than OTL (c1660s) and puts pressure on the more isolated Venecians, we considered the Venicians might cosy up to the Austrians for a benefactor/ally.

As part of the TL's trend towards Venice falling into the Autrian sphere an idea came up for Venice's Italian mainland holdings (e.g. Veneto) being absorbed de jura into the HRE as a diplomatic/economic concession, but de facto remaining Venecian.

Is this plausible? Implausible? ASB?

 

[Elfwine]

Difficult at best to pull off, off hand. I don't know the period or the area (mainly Egypt) well enough to say how implausible, however.

Venice cozying up to Austria makes sense though. In the very special Venetian way, but still.

 

[Falastur]

Thing is, Venice had land either taken by the Ottomans or tried by be taken on several occasions. They didn't cosy up to the Austrians, because there was absolutely nothing the Austrians could do. There was nothing they could do, either. They made no attempts at counter-attacks, they simply kept resupplying the defenders and hoped the defenses held out. Then when it came to the peace table, the Venetians used their extensive trade links as their card to play, and oftentimes the Ottomans handed back their land because of the trade revenues they gave to the Ottomans. The Ottomans would simply extort them for money or trade concessions instead. The Ottomans even ceded land to the Venetians sometimes. It was really just a convenience for them. They knew the Venetians couldn't hold that land against a concerted attack, so when relations grew strained they would attack a random Venetian outpost and get money for it.

 

[Alex Richards]

Essentially, Venice grew from a Byzantine outpost, whereas the HRE was from the Carolingian Empire. Particularly in Italy, but elsewhere as well it never happened that areas voluntarily joined the HRE. Particularly in the 17th Century when the Empire seemed to be going down the drain.

Austria hasn't got anything to offer Venice that Venice can't already gain through judicial use of alliances and counter alliances.

 

[wolf_brother]

Perhaps being absorbed into the HRE-proper is too much, but what of vassalage or what we today would call a proxy- or puppet-state?

 

[Elfwine]

Perhaps being absorbed into the HRE-proper is too much, but what of vassalage or what we today would call a proxy- or puppet-state?

You'd still need something that makes the obligations give a good return for Venice to accept something like that (theoretically possible), but without it being something that no Austrian emperor worth his name would want.

That's the problem. Venice has to find some reason that being tied to Austria offers something better than being able to be a slippery eel.

Either that or Austria has to be able to simply take Veneto, which would require a stronger Austria - the area isn't worth that much divergence of resources.

You could see Austria in a position where Venice feels making Austria happy is a good idea, but I'm not sure how that would be more than Austria as one of several relevant powers.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Thanks, everyone!

Seemed like we might be pushing it there, so good to get that cleared up.

New Questions then: how long could an independent Venice theoretically survive, assuming no Nappyesque disruptions of the status quo in the region? Does it slowly become absorbed more and more into the Ottoman economic sphere until it's a de facto economic vassal? Do the Ottomans prop it up against the other Catholic powers? Does it become a "Belgium" like economic/political neutral ground that's best kept "out of the other guys' hands"? Or is it doomed...DOOMED!

 

[Uriel]

Thanks, everyone!

Seemed like we might be pushing it there, so good to get that cleared up.

New Questions then: how long could an independent Venice theoretically survive, assuming no Nappyesque disruptions of the status quo in the region? Does it slowly become absorbed more and more into the Ottoman economic sphere until it's a de facto economic vassal? Do the Ottomans prop it up against the other Catholic powers? Does it become a "Belgium" like economic/political neutral ground that's best kept "out of the other guys' hands"? Or is it doomed...DOOMED!

I guess the remaining Illyrian territory would be taken over by Austria or Turkey.
And I can't see the posessions on the Italian mainland staing around once Italia begins to unify.
But maybe a Monaco like development: The city itself (+ a few outposts) stays independent as a tax haven and tourist attraction?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

If Venice manages to present its existence as beneficial to the balance of power in Italy (like, say, the Habsburgs propping them up in the case of a powerful France in Northern Italy), then it could survive as a sovereign polity. The survival of their hold on the Terra Firma is optional.